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Is Russia at war with Europe? UK thinks so, possibly by 2030. Is Ireland ready defence wise?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,942 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Totally agree. I am more worried about the EU trawlers stealing our fish stocks than the Russians. A big increase in the defence budget would largely be a waste of money. The arms manufacturers might think otherwise of course.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    EU trawlers aren't "stealing" anything.

    I doubt those impacted by the HSE cyber attack would agree with your views on the Russians either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,942 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    What are my views on the Russians?

    HSE Cyber attack...that's your best reason to increase defence spending?

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,637 ✭✭✭brickster69


    All conflicts end by dialogue and diplomacy. Look Iran now, if no one made the effort the global economy would be in serious trouble and the whole region would be close to erupting in flames.

    If Merz and Macron refuse attempts to talk, **** them.

    The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters. — Antonio Gramsci



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    No I don't.

    A properly resourced navy, 8 or 10 ships with crews is all thats needed in my opinion.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,450 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    EU trawlers aren't stealing fish. Brexit didn't help British fishing one iota.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    You are more worried about EU fishermen then Russian interference by your own admission. It is a bizarre take.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    All conflicts end by dialogue and diplomacy.

    Firstly, this is ahistorical garbage. Huge numbers of conflicts end by unconditional surrender.

    And, more importantly, Russia has no interest in dialogue and diplomacy. The only way you can think they do is to be either the least informed person on the planet or deliberately ignoring reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,923 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    It reminds me a bit of the Year 2k bug - it's not an issue until it is and then you're goosed. Until it becomes an issue though it seems like a complete non issue and a waste of money.

    Better to prepare for something that never happens then to be ill prepared for something that does happen. I think the defense of our homeland is probably something we should be prepared for, even if it's 'just in case'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,942 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I'd like to see more Irish naval ships checking for EU quota compliance and non-compliant gear and illegal incursions. But I don't want to see increased spending on fighter jets or tanks/artillery or a bigger army etc etc. Waste of money.

    The HSE was a basket case in terms of IT modernisation if you read the subsequent report. The cyber attack was probably the best thing that ever happened to them in terms of the resultant increase in IT spend. The HSE is not a valid reason to increase military/defence spending. Do let me know when the Russians land on our shores though.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth house?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭rock22


    "Ireland piggybacks off the UK because that's pretty much what it's always done. It's a tradition that goes back centuries. I've no problem with people wanting to change that but you're going to need to make a serious case for it given Ireland's insanely privileged geographical position. "

    That's not really the case. (And, as an aside, it couldn't go back centuries seeing as the Irish republic is less than 100 yr old).

    Since independence, the UK has worried about Ireland being used as a backdoor by an enemy to attack the UK. It was why De Valera agreed in ww2 never to allow Ireland to be used in that way and to allow assistance from UK if an attack happened . The situation is much the same today. No small country can allow itself be used as a launching pad for an attack on its neighbour. Allowing the Royal navy to patrol our waters and the RAF to patrol our airspace is nothing more than a continuation of that same policy. There is absolutely no chance of the Royal Navy or the RAF stopping such patrol if we get the navy and aircraft and do it too. . They will always want to carry out their own defence patrols. But not for our defence, rather for the defence of the UK.

    There is a good argument for spending on more modern equipment for defence forces. And there is an even stronger argument for increased spending on wages and on conditions to attract more people into the forces. That means either increasing taxes or diverting spending from somewhere else. We have a government party actually promising tax cuts at the moment and planning more borrowing in order to fund a saving scheme so any chance of significant funding increases for defence is slim to none, I would think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    How many naval ships and at what cost?

    The Irish fishing industry is small, inefficient and contributing very little to GNP. Government spending on fishing amounts to €255m a year, generating €1.3 billion in gross sales. There are 15,373 employed in fishing, meaning the Government spends €16,587 every year per job.

    https://bim.ie/a-seafood-way-of-life/facts-and-figures/

    The IDA gets €259m a year, supporting 165,000 jobs, and those companies spend €19 billion in Ireland.

    https://www.idaireland.com/getmedia/352684e8-8064-4aac-bb93-00c1f84fc35a/PDFAndFiles-Annual-reports_IDA-Ireland-Annual-Report-2024.pdf

    The numbers don't lie.

    I am always amused when people talk up the Irish fishing industry and the EU, as if we lost something by joining the EU. If we had had to give up our whole fishing industry as a price for the prosperity we now have, it would have been a very small price.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Defence of the homeland?

    How much and how many lives do you think that would cost?

    Isn't diplomacy and political angling a far better use of resources in those regards?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Isn't diplomacy and political angling a far better use of resources in those regards?

    No.

    Diplomacy does not and can not exist in a vacuum.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭Randycove


    Aggressors only negotiate because they are forced to.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,898 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    To paraphrase the Duke of Wellington, there is nothing so expensive as a country defended, except a country occupied.

    The occupied portions of Ukraine have not been a paradise for the Ukrainian citizens found there. Except, of course, for those sent to paradise by the occupiers. History has shown many times that it is better to not be occupied in the first place, if you’re worried about the safety and security of civilians.

    To be fair, Ireland need not be as worried about such things as countries like Lithuania. It needs an army only big enough to deal with local incursions. The Navy and Air Force needs the boost to protect infrastructure.

    However, there is a caveat. Ireland’s neutrality is not iron-clad, its historical participation in EU battlegroups indicates a willingness to prepare to fight alongside its EU partners. If it is indeed going to do that, it needs to be trained and equipped for the job.


    It seems to me that should the Baltic States, Poland or Finland (for example) find themselves in a fight for their citizens’ lives, they will remember the nations which helped them and those which did not. That is not likely to help Ireland’s diplomatic standing in Europe, no matter how much the Irish body politic may like to think it’s a diplomatic force. Consider the political, diplomatic and European ramifications currently hitting the US for even the possibility that it may be less invested in European defense. Then consider how they may reconsider their “friend” who refuses to risk a life to help while they are fighting for their own.

    I don’t know if you watched the consultative forum on neutrality a couple years back, but various panelists noted, the rest of the world doesn’t pay as much attention to Irish diplomacy as Ireland thinks it does.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,271 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I think even suggesting Poland, the baltic states and Finland would find themselves fighting for their civilian lives is fear mongering. Russia is not going to attack a Nato country when it cant even take on Ukraine.

    Perhaps in the future a threat will come along that could occupy us, but I cant see that being a legitimate threat in the foreseeable future.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,898 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    So four issues, here.

    1. The rest of Europe apparently don't believe it's fearmongering, given their massive increases in defence expenditure and actions like the return of conscription (if they even stopped, looking at you, Finland). What do you know that they don't?
    2. Ireland has proven unable to react to forseeable situations in reasonable timelines. The rest of Europe are working on a "be ready by 2030" date. Presumably they are giving a year or two's grace, better to be ready too early than too late, but there are valid reasons to pick that date, and they are just as aware of what's going on in Ukraine as we are. Either way, that's four years from now. Over four years ago, the Irish government received the report of the Commission of the Defence Forces. It gave controversial recommendations such as 'maybe it would be a good idea to have a radar to see what's going on in the sky, or perhaps some form of sub-surface surveillance capability'. These are recommendations which, as far as I know, no notable political party in Ireland has taken exception to. The recommendations were accepted by the Government of the time. Whilst the rest of Europe is preparing to fight in four years, four years after making a decision, Ireland still does not have an operating primary radar or a vessel equipped with sonar (let alone even a plan for doing anything with the information such equipment provides).
    3. What's worse is that Ireland is starting from scratch. If you look at a country like the Netherlands, when they cut back after the cold war ended, they said "OK, let's get rid of all our tanks, but just to keep the knowledgebase, we'll incorporate a couple of companies of troops into the German Army." When they decided to buy tanks again last year, they at least had a core of people who knew what they were doing so they are pretty capable as soon as the equipment is delivered. Other countries which are expanding their military capabilities are simply getting bigger, but not having to learn anything new. Ireland is starting from scratch, even for basic national policing duties. When those sonar get fitted to the ships in a year or two, the crews will have to learn how to use them effectively.
    4. The forseeable future isn't the problem, it's the unforseeable future. Which is why Europe is scrambling to re-arm as they obviously didn't forsee Russia deciding to start major wars in Europe. Again, we have precedent. In the interwar period, for example, the UK worked on the "ten year rule". They believed that there would not be a war for at least ten years, when they were doing their national planning. Germany apparently did not read the same rule-book, the UK was caught flat-footed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,271 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I think we are in dangerous territory if we say we should engage in wars to protect any european country. We could find ourselves in war with your country, USA, then if they invade Greenland.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,898 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I'm fairly sure the various European countries are not too picky about who they defend themselves against, assuming they are fans of self-determination. And if, in the unlikely event, the US is going to invade Greenland, they have a pretty good chance of invading another Atlantic coast state or two, like Iceland or Ireland. The arguments remain just as valid, even if you think a US attack is no less likely than a Russian one. (Notwithstanding that Russia arguably already has conducted hostile actions against Ireland, and I can't think of an equivalent by the US)

    In any case, the Greenland thing has blown over. Rational heads have prevailed and the US is looking to open new bases under the terms of its existing agreements with Denmark.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,271 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I dont think we should be take directions on who to fight wars for from someone who fights for a non European country. Your commander in chief has definitely been aggressive to Greenland.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,898 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I can't help but notice that you have not addressed any of the various points I put forward, the majority of which have nothing to do with the US at all. Might I suggest you take a slightly more European focus?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,271 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    If a European focus has scenarios of us declaring war on USA or Russia to protect another european country, which you support, I would want nothing to do with it.

    You are advocating for an Irish position when it doesnt effect you at all



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,898 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    It doesn't affect me, but Europe affects Ireland, two ways.

    Firstly Ireland's prosperity the past few decades has been linked to its membership of the EEC/EC/EU. The quality of life you enjoy is directly correlated to peace and partnership in Europe. The more the latter is negatively affected, the greater the impact on Ireland, both immediately and over time..

    Secondly, if an adversary feels that it is advantageous to attack Ireland in order to achieve its goals elsewhere in Europe such as affecting communications or commerce or simply destabilizing the country, it's not going to care about Irish sensibilities. It's not going to care about what anyone thinks, let alone Ireland.

    And again I would note you have not addressed any of the European concerns I mentioned. Whether they affect me or not, they still affect Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭rock22


    Countries like Germany , Czechia , have been supportive of Israel in the current conflict . If there were an EU army and we were part of it, then we could see Irish troops fighting alongside the IDF.

    We have only been invaded by one country, England. I cannot see that happening again and I don't see any other likely threat. Even if the the UK or US or Russia were to invade, total mobilisation here would bot allow us to defend ourselves

    Our neutrality has served us well, is serving us well and will serve us well into the future..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,450 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    If there were an EU army and we were part of it, then we could see Irish troops fighting alongside the IDF.

    Or we could focus on reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,271 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    If people want us to support other European countries in war by supplying soldiers if they are attacked then they are really just saying we should join NATO, which the public here has continually expressed their opposition too.

    Russia is a paper tiger, so they have not changed the publis minds here by trying to make it out as a big threat to us. Im for an increased defensive spending though, i do think thats important.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,601 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    How its it a paper Tiger? It's been involved in numerous conflicts and a current war. It has aircraft and ships off Irish shores. Ireland has experienced serious cyber attacks from Russian locations.

    While a risk of direct conflict is very unlikely. Attacks to infrastructure and industry are likely if only to frustrate and antagonise Ireland and Western Countries that Ireland has commercial and communication links with.

    We can't say it won't ever happen it has already happened. We don't a full blown military but We should have the equipment and skills and resources to protect our economy from nuisance attacks.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,271 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    It is a paper tiger as it cant defeat a much smaller neighbouring country. The suggestion that Russia feared NATO enough to invade Ukraine to prevent it joining NATO, would then attack NATO directly afterwards is pie in the sky thinking. Russia has revealed itself to be very weak.

    The Irish public doesnt want the EU army to be a mini NATO and has consistently expressed support for Neutrality.

    I would agree with the sentiment expressed in your last sentence.



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