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Meanwhile on the Roads...

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭mattser


    Like the tractor or hgv driver, have the cop on/courtesy to realise there's a build up behind. I don't mean every 200 metres, but I've often sat held up for kilometers.

    I'm talking roads with limited straight stretch availability.

    2X4. 4X2. Whatever.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭BP_RS3813


    Oh yeh I've watched it loads before.

    Just didn't clock you meant when they were trackstanding/freewheeling before the hard effort.

    My head went straight to when they are at top speeds.

    Apologies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 290 ✭✭khamilton


    You're not even trying to read what people are writing.


    You took a section from a piece of legislation that is literally titled 'Drive on left' and only mentions roadways, where roadways are defined as the entire section of a road 'provided primarily for use of vehicles', and somehow took it to mean 'people should keep left within specific lanes' which is not something that can be inferred from the plain meaning of the legislation.


    If they intended lane, they would have used lane as indeed, the word lane is used extensively in other pieces of legislation.

    Approximately 100 penalty points are issued per month for this offence, the sole google result of anyone publicly receiving penalty points for it was a boardsie's brother who received it for staying in the right hand lane of an empty motorway with a Garda car behind them.


    Going back to the 1997 legislation we have:

    'Save where otherwise required by these Regulations, a vehicle shall be driven on the left hand side of the roadway in such a manner so as to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic or pedestrians, approaching traffic to pass on the right and overtaking traffic to overtake on the right.'

    which is immediately followed by

    'A driver shall not overtake, or attempt to overtake, unless the roadway ahead of the driver—

    ( a ) is free from approaching traffic, pedestrians and any obstruction, and'

    Reading these two together makes it clear that overtaking is only envisaged in a situation where the right hand part of the roadway is clear of traffic (indeed, this legislation makes it illegal to overtake while staying in lane if cars are approaching), and drive on left only refers to not driving in the middle of a roadway unless its unsafe not to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Scrabbel


    We've dealt with many of these points already. And as one poster has pointed out, the impact of the obligation to allow other vehicles to overtake safely is really most relevant on narrower roads, many of which around the country don't have any centre markings at all. (So it can't be defined purely by reference to right lane and left lane as many roads don't have lanes.). So if it's necessary to create enough space to allow a car to overtake safely (which includes leaving 1m or 1.5m clearance to the cyclist) then the cyclist is obliged to move enough left to allow that, so long as it's safe to do so of course.
    By the way I think 1.5m isn't enough on a greater than 50kmh road and when I'm driving a car on such a road I won't overtake unless there's a bit more space than that available.

    Post edited by Scrabbel on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    You still don't get it obviously. Please hand back your driving licence 🙄

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Scrabbel


    To Seth Brundle: I prefer the approach of some other posters who engage in reasoned debate, in some cases with points I agree with.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 290 ✭✭khamilton


    You haven't dealt with any of those points. You got confused between lane and roadway and have never dealt with anything since. The section you referenced is clearly only interested in setting out that drivers should not unreasonably obstruct the progress of other drivers in either direction of travel in a roadway by unnecessarily taking a central position in the roadway when unwarranted. 'Left hand side of' does not in any interpretation mean 'drive as far left as possible' - it means what it literally says, the left hand side of something.


    If the legislation had intended 'drive as far left inside a lane as is possible', it would have specified two sections;


    Section 1 dealing with roadways that do not have individual lanes

    Section 2 dealing with roadways with two subsections; roadways that have one lane in each direction, roadways with more than one lane in a direction


    That's how the law works, and if you read any other parts of the legislation you referred to, you'd see that level of granularity and specificity in action.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,277 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Long story short - the (widely believed) assertion that you must cycle in the left of the lane - in general - is not based in any truth.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I would dispute that given that you've ignored everything you have been told and still peddle nonsense as fact!

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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    It is a matter of balancing that with discouraging unsafe passing, where riding too far to the left or in the gutter can encourage dangerous passes when there's oncoming traffic. Teaching my kids to cycle on the main road many years back, this was something that took them a time to pick up. New cyclists often go out with the opinion that they should stay as far in as possible to allow faster traffic to pass, whereas the safer option is to take the lane if they don't think following traffic can pass safely. Cyclecraft is an old book at this stage but absolutely worth a read when it comes to cycling safely in traffic.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Might I also add that despite your comment yesterday about how you very recently discovered that cyclists need to stay on the left side of the lane (which is not correct)…

    …you did start a thread in the motors forum over two years ago on this very topic…

    So please forgive me if I'm somehow misinterpreting your objective here!

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,054 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Back to work today, thanks for the distraction on a wet and miserable Tuesday.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Nobody's disputing that, but what you're suggesting now is not the basis on which you began this discussion. Lets not be disingenuous here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,729 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    I don't think cyclecraft ever sold much in Italy 😭.

    I'm just back from Tuscany trail, where 95% of the route was on glorious off road white roads or very quiet rural roads.

    The other 5% didn't bode well for road cycling in Italy.

    On twisty roads drivers just overtake; they all gamble all the time. Way worse than my very occasional experience of non local roads here.

    I don't think I ever roared "you çunt" as many times. The 10km west of Sienna was **** awful.

    As an aside Tuscany Trail is a brilliant event. With every time of bike imaginable and every type of bikepacking set up imaginable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    But but but… he's a cyclist too??

    Funny story, I once drove a tractor and helped out on the uncle's dairy farm for a summer. As a farmer, I'm going to head over to the Farming Forum now and share some of my wisdom.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    It's not about cyclists, they overtake you like that when you're driving too. I've been overtaken on switchbacks, by people in tiny tin can cars. It's just Italian driving!



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,346 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    It's what put me off cycling more when I was living over there. Tiny narrow roads with high walls on either side offering zero escape opportunities. Even walking roads like this you find yourself pressed up against the walls very often even though lots of people walk these roads. Problem is you don't know when the reasonably good road you start cycling along turns into one of these canyons.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,277 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i was walking in rome once, on a one way street but hadn't copped the bus lane was counter-flow. i stepped out into what seemed to be an empty lane (because the footpath was rammed) and the driver of the bus behind me deliberately nudged me with the bus to alert me to his presence…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,729 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,277 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    oh, that'd be fun. 'why do i have to move? you're the wider one!'



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,584 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Put your money where yer mouth is... Subscribe and Save Boards!

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,277 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    my wife works in the city centre and often finds herself on parliament street; and she says it's almost become more unpleasant since it was 'pedestrianised'. she was nearly hit twice today by cyclists (both of them food delivery guys on what she says were undoubtedly non-regulation e-bikes) who did not moderate their speed at all to account for the fact it's a shared space; they ignored the pedestrian lights, which i guess you could argue are superfluous now.

    whatever about the gardai turning a blind eye to these guys doing 30 or 40 on a frankenbike in a bus lane, to do it through a pedestrianised area is an 'accident' waiting to happen. she's seen tourists nearly coming a cropper too.

    would be great to see the gardai mounting an operation and stopping these lads a couple of times and giving them a warning, with a promise that after a certain period, the next time they were stopped, they'd be done for using a moped in a pedestrianised area with all other offences that follow, prosecuted.

    also, i haven't been there myself recently, but it may warrant a greater effort of engineering to actually make it a shared space. AFAIK it still looks like a normal street with footpaths.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 290 ✭✭khamilton


    I commute from D16 to D2. The amount of high visibility policing I see at Terenure and Rathgar crossroads, and Rathmines every single day is incredible. Yet they're not doing high visibility policing at obvious spots like parliament or capel street (or around nighttime hotspots). I can see 10 guards hanging out just being visible on a single spin in.

    It's great to see them out and about, but it is frustrating.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,277 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    also, i haven't been there myself recently, but it may warrant a greater effort of engineering to actually make it a shared space. AFAIK it still looks like a normal street with footpaths.

    my wife tells me that they have actually put chicanes, street furniture etc. in, so it definitely does look like a shared space.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭BP_RS3813


    Maybe its just me but I actually find town much more dangerous to cycle in then the roads.

    I go from the Northside to the office up near Rathmines and find I can handle the cars on the malahide rd safely enough. Experienced enough at this point to deal with traffic, aggressive drivers etc.

    Town is a completely different story - the amount of ej*ts cycling/on a scooter using head/ear phones, not looking before turning is where the danger is IMO.

    Not to mention all the pedestrians around who's faces are buried in their screens. It seems situational awareness has juat gone out the window.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭BP_RS3813


    I'm actually against shared spaces. I don't believe they work and I believe they are a product of sh*t infrastructure.

    All modes of traffic should be completely seperated. Pedestrians should be nowhere near bikes, same for bikes and cars and same for HGVs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    I've been on it and haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary. That kind of behaviour by cyclists on shared pedestrian spaces (especially the "ding ding, get out of my way" bell ring or horn sounding) does boil my p**s though.

    Food delivery frankenbikes are an issue, but an issue in the same way that the status quo was arrived at because of a lack of foresight and interest in regulating and enforcing by the authorities. In other words, pretty much the same problem we have with most road traffic issues.

    I don't think random Garda action would have any meaningful effect and could make the situation worse (justifying further demonisation of underpaid, poorly treated foreign gig-economy workers). Even if it did have an immediate effect, it would just return to normal as soon as the focus drifted again.

    I do agree that something needs to be done, but find it hard to bother coming up with ideas/ suggestions because of the general apathy that the issue will be met with by those who can actually do something.

    Yeah, they've done a very good job there in fairness. Shouldn't really need to segregate cyclists and pedestrians there as a bit of cop-on should tell anyone on a bike that it's essentially a pedestrian street that cyclists are allowed on, not a car free road that pedestrians are allowed on.

    EDIT: may have misinterpreted your post - if you're suggesting a specific enforcement campaign on particular streets, yeah that could work. In fact its probably something that should be caught by the Gardai on the beat as it is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Ah, I really like pedestrian and cycling shared spaces in the right settings. Not a fan at all of shared cycle lane/ footpaths (I just use the road instead of them). But (1) pedestrianising streets is a really positive move; (2) we should be encouraging cycling as a flexible mode of commuting and transport - treating bikes akin to cars (as in, no, you're not allowed use this street anymore either); and (3) a lot of people who walk around town get into town by bike - most of us are perfectly able to use common sense, respect and get along just fine. As per Magicbastarder's post - all that's really needed is a bit of education, regulation and enforcement to align attitudes.

    Pedestrians and cyclists have coexisted perfectly since the dawn of the bicycle. Aligning bikes with cars would be a terrible move.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭De Bhál


    Pedestrians and cyclists should be able to co-exist in the same space and I'd hate to see them separate. The onus is fully on cyclists to be careful in these situations



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 313 ✭✭DoraDelite


    I've stopped labelling those guys as cyclists to be honest as I don't think it's fair on actual cyclists to lump them into that category. It's gives the rage baiters something to have a go about cyclists in general. Those guys are on illegal vehicles and should be dealt with accordingly, it would take the Gardai 10 mins standing on Capel st/Parliament st/ or any pedestrian area to nab a load of them, if they did that regularly word would get around.



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