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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,361 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    There is only one entrance at SSG too so they already compromised there. O'Connell St, Tara St and Charlemont have two entrance points (although the second one for OCS looks more like an after thought tbh).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,301 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    The reality is the designers know full well that it's nonsense to skimp on entrances. You can effectively increase the catchment area of a station by adding entrances across the main road next to it or at both ends. They are trying to keep the initial cost down, which is a refelection more on our political system than the designers.

    I am pretty sure that SSG will have more entrances added in the decades to come.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,592 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Made sense in mainland europe the 20th century with massive roads in city centres that were hard to cross. 2030s Dublin City Centre will see greatly reduced road width even compared to now. So adding an entrace across a road is not going to save anyone much hassle, the same distance/time will still be walked.

    That being said I would also have liked to see a developing network of coverd or enclosed pedestrian areas in Dublin and sprawling metro stations and shopping centres have formed part of that puzzel in Canada and Hong Kong for example where extreme heat and cold drive people away from retail.

    Heavy rain has a negative impact on footfall here in Ireland. Imagine a covered Henry St, Moore Street, Princes Street and future Dublin Central/ O'Connell metro station. If that were created here we'd probably opt for the street level cover or partial shelter rather than underground walkway. Itd help make Dublin City Centre more liveable and tackle car dependency.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The reason it only has one entrance is because they are following the Copenhagen approach of simple stations which keeps costs down versus "traditional metros" [1].

    The CEO explained it in the video a few days ago. One entrance and two escalators, versus multiple entrances and a dozen escalators. It really drives costs up.

    For Stephens Green the only place you could put a second entrance is the South Eastern corner of Stephens Green, which wouldn't be of much benefit. The entrances are built as part of the cut and cover station box, so they can only be placed within the station box, if you wanted one across the road or down by Grafton street, then that would involve mining and would significantly increase the cost.

    Note Tara Street, the two entrances are both within the station box. O'Connell Street is a bit different, but it looks like necessary due to placement of the firefighter lift, which they then took the opportunity to add a second entrance.

    [1] Ours looks like it isn't quiet as simple as Copenhagen, with bigger station boxes and the odd extra escalator, etc. But it overall follows that approach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,301 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Am I reading the Glasnevin plans right if I think there are no escalators linking the Irish Rail platforms with the ML concourse level, just stairs and lifts?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,361 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    It doesn't follow Copenhagen though to that extent of simplicity. For a start the station boxes are far bigger and deeper and every station has a mezzanine level which doubles the number of escalators straight off the bat. The platforms are longer as well. Also the outgoing Director mentioned Copenhagen design in the context of New Zealand but he also spoke on several occasions about how quality is important for ML as well.

    You want passengers to have the best possible experience.

    I don't like the cheap feel of the Cophenhagen system personally. I think a capital city should expect a certain standard and I think they went below it trying something kind of novel but it didn't work.

    That's why stations are different on newer lines, bigger and more spacious.

    Where it does fit Copenhagen is the simple passenger circulation design - the sight lines are straight forward. Other than that though it's not as constrained as what they built.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭specialbyte


    I never noticed that detail before. There's escalators on the MetroLink elements of the station but not on the Irish Rail side.

    Lobby to MetroLink platforms

    From the main lobby to the concourse level MetroLink has stairs and two escalators. From the MetroLink concourse level to the mezzanine level MetroLink has stairs and two escalators. From the mezzanine level to the MetroLink platforms there is stairs and two escalators to each platform. For lift users there's a lift from the lobby to the concourse level. Then a lift straight to each platform.

    Lobby to Irish Rail platforms

    From the main lobby to the Irish Rail platform there are just stairs and lifts. No escalators at all.

    MetroLink Platforms to Irish Rail platforms

    MetroLink platform to mezzanine level. Then there are 4 separate escalators to a separate area of the concourse level for Irish Rail connections. From the concourse level up to the Irish Rail platforms there are lifts or stairs. No escalators.

    It's like you can feel the different in philosophies between TII and Irish Rail. TII fine with escalators. Irish Rail anti-escalators.

    Source drawings are here



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Many of Copenhagens stations are just as deep as ML and have mezzanines and in fact multiple floors of escalators!

    There is a person on youtube that has full walk throughs of many stations. Check out the ones of Osterport or Christianshavn, you go down 3 or four levels of escalators!

    Also I don't know where you gotten the idea that newer stations are larger. They aren't, the latest M3/4 stations are exactly the same size as the M1/2 line.

    Perhaps you are thinking of the future M5 line, that is currently in early planning and yes they are planning for 50m trains on that line, so big!!

    But we are very much following the Copenhagen approach, fully automated, "small" trains, but very high frequency, "small" fully contained station boxes constructed with cut and cover only. Mostly only one entrance and less escalators.

    Sure, we are going to slightly longer trains and thus stations, but it is still going to feel very similar to Copenhagen, then "traditional" Metros.

    On the other hand we have gone with a "cheaper" design in other ways. Our choice to go for Single bore tunnel versus dual bore of Copenhagen, is cheaper, but has the downside that we won't be able to do 24/7 operations unlike Copenhagen, so a functional lose for passengers.

    An interesting aside, Copenhagen was originally going to have 4 carriage trains rather then 3, but then cut back to 3 to save money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,301 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    That's going to be an annoying trek up the stairs to the DART from the ML concourse every evening on your way home from work assuming you work in the city centre. The stairs coming up from ML also appear to surface to the open air, with no canopy. I can't believe they are actually going to build the IR part of the station like that. Is the detail just missing from the ML drawings I wonder? I know all the other stations along the DART there are designed in a fairly hostile way with minimal shelter but this is going to be a major interchange station with huge patronage, possibly the busiest or second busiest station on the network. It deserves full length canopies IMV. Hopefully it's just outside of the scope of the drawings here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 644 ✭✭✭Thunder87


    It sounds par for the course for Irish Rail, I'd be more surprised if they designed something that didn't show complete contempt for their passengers



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    IR's Tara Street station does have some escalators. But yes, boy does that station need redevelopment!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,851 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Discovered the other week that Dun Laoghaire station has an escalator for the entrance on the ferry terminal side. Obviously was intended for when the ferry still ran to/from there, but was surprised to see it was still in place and working all these years later!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,361 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Comfort for passengers = potential loitering spot for delinquents sadly. If we had a dedicated resourced transport police they may be more willing to have a less "hostile" environment. It's disappointing but it's hard not to see where they are coming from given what they have to deal with on their own trains on a daily basis, never mind platforms.

    The access to the IE lines will also be ticket barriered.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    AFAIK The Tara Street ML station is completely separate from the IR station. You will exit the ML station into a plaza and either walk around to the quays entrance or if IR can bother to open the Townsend Street entrance, then that would be a few meters from one of the ML entrance.

    Originally there was a plan for a direct integration, but that seemed to have been scrapped.

    I suspect IR's legal case about air rights over their station might complicate things there. Certainly not ideal, hopefully a future renovation of Tara St might go some ways to improving it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,301 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Although the eastern ends of the IR platforms at Glasnevin will definitely be under cover because they are beneath the entrance building. Anyone "wishing" to sleep rough at the station will have the opportunity with or without the western ends of the platforms and in particular the openings from the stairs up from ML being under cover.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,584 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Irish Rail would probably prefer to have no direct link to the the Metro - sure passengers can just go out to the street and back into the other station can't they?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,691 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,592 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    There are significant anti progress elements within Irish Rail that would rather have no passengers at all. The project teams for Irish Rail like DART+ are largely recruited from the private sector but of course they need the cooperation of the long established institutionalised semi state types that work in the maintenence and operations departments and that cooperation is never really given, instead obstructionism is given.

    They'll refuse escalators, lifts, anything made of glass, literally anything that requires any maintenance at all. If the project team need somthing, documents, a site visit, fill in the form 9 months in advance, then we'll loose the form, all that crap. And of course They'll try to freeze out the 'blow ins' who think they're important all of a sudden because they're working on a glamorous project so there's ahigh staff turn over. That's basically the mindset in the long standing semi state companies. That's why government created so many new quangos like TII and NTA.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    For some balance, here are two reasons that aren’t based on “Irish Rail hates people”:

    Tara St station will definitely be redeveloped (they already tried once, but Johnny Ronan pulled out of the commercial part) - tying MetroLink in with the current, cramped station layout would limit what could be done to expand that station in future. When Tara St eventually does get redesigned, I expect a much better Metro interchange will come with that. I’m pretty sure I read this during the ML consultation phase as the reason for there being no direct link.

    Glasnevin DART station has not been designed yet - its design depends on the final MetroLink station, which must be built first anyway for cost reasons. Those plans for the DART station shown in the ML docs are extremely rough, and really, a staircase only indicates that there will be a large hole in the floor in that location - that’s really the only important thing to know about at this stage. When it comes to final design, that staircase could end up with escalators included.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,301 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Yeah I really hope the drawings don't show the IR bits in detail because they are out of scope. Escalators and canopies or a fully enclosed IR station are pretty much essential at Glasnevin or the experience will be very poor for connecting passengers.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,506 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    That’s the mindset in all semi state companies is it?
    Good to know you have your finger on the pulse of all semi state companies in Ireland. 🤦‍♂️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,361 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Erm it has been fully designed and through the planning process.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,592 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    It is a prevalent mindset/culture yes. Not universal of course.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,506 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    In your opinion, which I presume is from you having worked in all semi state companies in the land to confirm this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,592 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    I've worked in 2 of the big ones alright. And yes its my opinion and its one that is widely shared including by the government that gave us the DTO and later the NTA and TII



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,506 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Ok so you’ve clearly worked in one’s with a poor work ethic 😉



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Has it?

    Metrolink has only a placeholder design for the DART station in its RO application, and the DART+ plans show no DART station at all at Glasnevin, just the outline of the Metrolink one.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,435 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Yes, the entire station is to be constructed as part of Mertolink, so there's no need for anything in D+.

    Anyway, doesn't look like a placeholder in the approved order from ACP, on page 23 in this doc here.

    Obviously still needs the detailed design to be done, but this it is fairly complete.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 644 ✭✭✭Thunder87


    The was no redevelopment of Tara Street planned with Ronan's tower, a previous iteration in the mid 2010s had station improvements (proposed by Ronan, not IR) but from memory I think ABP refused it and the eventual approved project did nothing more than open up a new side entrance on Tara Street itself

    You'd hope they will do something with it eventually, but given their annual station improvement budget in Dublin appears to be somewhere in the region of €0 I wouldn't confidently say it'll "definitely be redeveloped"!



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Redevelopment of Tara St might fall under the DART+ Coastal South plan phase 2. Just a guess, they haven’t really published details of that plan yet.



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