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Women's rights under attack

1356716

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,501 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    a few people have mentioned Christian Men, this is exactly what Hillary Clinton is getting lambasted for at the moment. These are all imported problems in people’s heads, there not the problems facing the 17-25yr old women and dare I say it guys at the moment. Pointing at religious men or stay at home moms/trad wives is just parroting American leftists and NGO’s. It’s not real word Irish problems.

    There’s a massive societal shift in Ireland that has swung a bit too far left and is currently rebalancing trying to find the new normal, there’s a whole generation that were denied a wright or passage, we’ve massive drug issues, violence, mental health, housing problems etc, 4th wave Feminism is a much to blame as Christian men but neither of them really are they’re just all part of the upheaval people are struggling with. Both sexes have lost their traditional roles, not necessarily all for the better.
    I do think the GRA should be done away with, there shouldn’t be any doubt what a woman is, I’m pretty sure medically transient kids will be seen as a barbaric crime in the future here, it’s not ethical it’s criminal. It would be great if we just accepted that and took the whole trans thing off the debate table. More pressing issues that need intervention now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Who are the anti- trans posters? Are you referring to those who believe in biological reality?

    Many have pointed out the problems that flow from belief in a harmful ideology, but have also said they have no problem with how others identify or live their lives, so long as they don't infringe on the hard won rights of others.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭aero2k


    For me it's not trans issues per se that draw me into the discussions. How people identify or live their lives in general is no concern of mine - I'm a big advocate for as much personal freedom as possible, as long as it's compatible with a stable society. It's the insidious stuff that bothers me: the logical inconsistencies and mental gymnastics, the enforcement of outdated gender stereotypes, forced speech, calling anyone who doesn't believe the full catechism a bigot, the fact that the whole thing is based on one big lie, and the irreversible harm that's being done. It's very damaging for society to have an official policy that's based on a pretence. There's at least one other similar situation that bothers me, but I don't want to drag the thread OT.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,789 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I genuinely don’t care about whether you want to label yourself anti-trans or a biological realist. My point is starting a thread entitled “Women's rights under attack” but talking exclusively about trans people is not correct, and thinking the MAGA movement is fighting the good fight for women, as the OP does, is baffling to me.

    I’d say 99.9% of women are far more concerned about equality, health, employment and childcare rights than whether a bloke wants to wear a dress.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    Saying it’s a trans issue is lazy thinking. Crikey..

    We’ve had wonderful expressive non-conforming females & males over the years who have expressed their individuality through their many creative choices of who they want to be and be seen as.. reinventing themselves as they mature and change. Unique, intelligent, expressive and beautiful, all of them. But none have ever tried to dismantle another groups rights. Ever.

    This is about a woman’s right to say No. A woman’s choice. Their voice.. but for sure a man comes along and states: this isn’t about women’s right, but anti-trans. Good grief!

    The weak illogical replies in this thread are a symptom of the systemic embedded disregard to anything a woman says.

    Isn’t it time people wound their necks in and engage their noodle to think objectively as to why women are saying no? As is their right.

    But hey.. let’s make this thread about trans by repeating it is about trans, says the crowd complaining it’s about trans.. lol.

    ”I hate who steals my solitude without, in exchange, offering true company.” - F. Nietzsche



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I've no desire or need to label myself in any way, thank you very much, but feel free to fire away with the labels if that's what floats your boat.

    You're probably right about the % of women who care about a bloke wearing a dress, however I suspect a significant % have real concerns about the possibility of that bloke, dress wearing or otherwise, turning up in women's private spaces or sports competitions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,501 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Trump made the right move our Goverment should do the same and put an end to it. The American society of plastic surgeons is calling for a ban on gender surgerys until at least 19 due to a lack of evidence and the risks out weighing the benifits, A detransitioner has been awarded 2 milion because a double mastecomy was preformed on her. Then we have our future Taoiseach and minister for finance all smiles with Sidbh Gallagher. The whole thing is bonkers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 304 ✭✭Mother Shaboobu


    Women's rights gets used as such a political football. Cynically by the right when it suits. Ignored by the left if it doesn't suit.

    Anyway, the West has its issues in this regard, but there but for the grace…

    1000023166.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,482 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    I have shared changing rooms and toilets with trans women and don't have a problem with it or a concern with it. And please stop being so derogatory as to refer to them as "bloke wearing a dress". In fact a lot of the trans women I have met don't wear dresses at all.

    Again, I, as a woman, have no issue sharing a space with a trans woman. My only issue with any woman (trans or cis) in a private space is that they act respectful to people. Like not filming videos in bathrooms - I don't want anyone doing that no matter who they are. As for sports competitions - well I think a lot of that depends on the sport in question and the level of hormone therapy the individual is on and how that affects the testosterone level in their system. If the testosterone is at a similar level to a cis-woman, I see no problem in it personally.

    If you want to look at it from an interesting perspective - Iran actually has one of the highest rates of gender re-assignment in the world as they don't recognise trans individuals until gender reassignment and there are no rights for gay or non-binary individuals. This pushes a lot of people towards gender reassignment. Now I'm not saying that's right either but I do think it's interesting how they're able to get their heads around it and allow post surgery individuals to fully identify as that gender in society & sport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭aero2k


    If you're going to tell me to stop being derogatory, then you need to go one step further and say the same thing to the poster I quoted and who's phrase that was. But why shouldn't I call a bloke in a dress a bloke in a dress, if that is indeed what he is? When did stating such facts become derogatory?

    If you personally have no problem sharing changing rooms that's great - but I hope you still allow for the various nurses in England for example to have a different point of view.

    Your mention of the situation in Iran is a good illustration of " transing away the gay" which is one of the many inevitable consequences of following the ideology to it's logical conclusion.



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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 8,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭circadian


    Oh look, yet another trans bashing TERF thread under the guise of "women's rights" by the usual suspects.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,859 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    If you want to consent to sharing changing, washing or toilet facilities with biological men who identify as women that is your prerogative.

    What you cannot do is consent for all the women who do not want to share what once were same sex facilities with biological men. Once a man is allowed into a women's same sex space it is no longer a same sex space. And vice versa, I think men have every right to be uncomfortable sharing their formerly same sex spaces with biological women who identify as men.

    Accommodations for people who identify as opposite to their biological sex should not supplant nor override same sex provisions for everyone else. It is not fair or equitable. If they want to campaign for a third space that is sex neutral I would support that but I will not support women's same sex spaces being eroded.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,482 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    Ok but neither do your rights trump theirs. It's a lovely merry go round of the fact that we all have rights.

    And unless you actually go up to someone are you able to tell just by looking who is trans? Or who might just be quite a masculine looking cis-woman? I mean is someone going to start checking people going into changing rooms in a clothes shop to see if their trans or cis? And is that not just a violation of everyone's rights? And when do you think it might be ok - I mean if someone has had gender reassignment surgery, is taking hormones & is living as a woman, can they be let into female toilets then? Is it not also inherently dangerous for a trans woman to have to use the men's bathroom as they may be subject to assault of any nature?

    You will not support them being eroded is fine but that is your opinion, I have mine. And yours doesn't trump mine as mine doesn't trump yours.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,482 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    Apologies for that & I should. Because it isn't a bloke in a dress & if you can't grasp that, then you need to maybe do a bit of reading. Also aren't you in blessed position to feel comfortable in your own skin whereas, from my understanding, living in what you believe is the wrong gender is incredibly difficult and a lot more nuanced than just "I want to wear a dress". And what would the opposite be for a trans man? Because women wear trousers anyway.

    To be honest - the rules in England for nurses is up to the NHS & people in England to deal with.

    It's not one of the inevitable - in fact there are quite a few trans people online that have transitioned & are now in essentially a gay relationship as it wasn't anything to do with being gay in the first place. It's not a logical conclusion as gender and sexuality are not one in the same.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Oh look, another TERF bashing post. Care to engage with the actual content of the thread? You could start by pointing out specific examples of " trans bashing".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭aero2k


    And thank you.

    I actually have done a fair bit of reading - I wanted to understand as many points of view as I could. I've come around to the Helen Joyce position: most of the time sex doesn't matter, but when it matters it really does matter. So I use sex-based language when I'm referring to men or women. I find it easier and less ambiguous. I'm not at all bothered about how people identify or present themselves to the world.

    Agreed that the rules in England are for the English to deal with; the NHS cases were a convenient and topical example, that's all.

    You're actually making my point for me in your final sentence: gender identity and sexuality are completely separate things, that's why I'm troubled by the idea that effeminate boys, who might turn out to be gay if left to develop normally, could be send down a gender affirming medical path.

    And I couldn't make head or tail of your second last sentence - when you say a gay relationship do you mean two people with the same birth sex together, or two different birth sexes but one now identifies as the same gender as the other? Being gay, as I understand it, means being sexually attracted to someone of the same sex.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Your first sentence after the meme clearly shows that it was meant tongue in cheek - and the rest of the post shows you were willing to discuss.

    However, I don't think it's fair to characterise @o1s1n OP as instructing you - he just stated his opinion (which I happen to disagree with, for the reasons I outlined). If I express a different opinion to yours, is that not tantamount to telling you you're wrong, albeit in a nicer way? Your OP said "I'm keen to hear what others think about this? I'm perfectly happy to discuss it politely with anyone who disagrees".

    I think the tone of some of the responses to you was out of line.

    On all of these threads, I've seen posters who are on the other side of the argument to you and I (I don't agree with you on everything) saying thing like "why are you obsessed with genitals", "why do you care what people wear or call themselves", "I have no concerns for my wife / daughters", "it's only a tiny number" etc, etc. What I have yet to see is full engagement with the issues raised, and a considered counter argument.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Just getting back to this: I don't think it's only men who are responsible for the attack on women's rights that you've described. The small number involved would never have succeeded to the level they have without the full cooperation of women's groups, and an environment where inclusivity means validating delusional beliefs. This environment in turn came about due to the feminisation of academia, and HR departments etc. I've heard the phrase "suicidal empathy" in another context, I think it applies here too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I had never heard of Sidbh Gallagher before, but apparently she performs 500 gender affirming procedures per year. That's 500 times healthy tissue/organs are mutilated in pursuit of an unattainable ideal, possibly with the objective of dealing with a mental health issue. That's a lot of harm done to a lot of people, by one doctor, for an issue that apparently is so small we shouldn't even be talking about it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Yes you're absolutely right about there being a significant numnber of women who have been/are enthusiastic cheerleaders for the erasure of women's rights. I've seen them referred to as "handmaidens", or "Pick me" women - women who have chosen the side they see as more powerful, ie men, and are expecting to gain personally from other women's losses.

    I think it's always happened: for instance there were very active women's groups that were anti women's suffrage in the 19th and early 20th Cs.

    The feminisation of academia and HR is an interesting aspect but I don't know enough detail to be able to examine it. I agree it's possible that it's more than just correlation but I'm not sure. Same for "suicidal empathy" - again, it's intuitively attractive but I really don't know how well defined and evidence-based the whole concept is. Maybe.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Cheers, likewise I've skimmed several articles regarding feminisation of institutions, and the arguments therein hold up well on first glance, but I haven't the time, energy or intellect to really interrogate them. I mentioned it as a possible factor.

    I do try to avoid a men v women thing as much as possible, but there has been a lot of recent commentary which paints women as 100% angels and men as toxic beings in need of re-education. I prefer to try to find ways of dealing with the assholes of either sex.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,501 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    where do you even start with this article in the times, one side of me thinks some posters wish the same thing if they had a son so they won’t end up like O1s1on or myself just as long as they’re not trans.
    I said feminism has gone a little too far and this pretty much nails the problem if this is what modern feminism has resorted to believing. Tate gets a mention as well.

    https://archive.ph/kxMYg



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,501 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,501 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Impeccable timing, I’d really question is it women under attack, men or people on the spectrum , let me introduce Samantha, wonder what jail they’ll end up in.
    https://www.laois-nationalist.ie/sex-offender-jailed-after-sex-assault-on-vulnerable-young-man_arid-88400.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    That’s an awful article. A weak opinion peice at best. I don’t think it has anything to do with feminism either, just a flimsy loose connection.

    I’m aware of the stats that say different, but I’m do not know any father in my social or wider family circle who doesn’t raise their kids well to best of their ability. Yes, mothers tend to do more of the emotional heavy lifting (unfairly I might add) but kids hugely benefit if that’s shared equally between both parents.

    It’s a no brainer then that women need to have equality with their partner when raising kids, an equal contribution to parenting and no one should never ever get bogged down or become anxious on how their kids are going to turn out.

    I also don’t think there should be any difference between how girls & boys are treated in terms of behaviour, attitude and respect. But you’ll never get that from a kid until you freely give it.

    Raising an individual is the most important, one who can navigate their own way through life.

    Equality in parenting is the bees knees if you’re lucky enough to get it, that is..

    ”I hate who steals my solitude without, in exchange, offering true company.” - F. Nietzsche



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    Anyone who is seen as the weaker sex. In this case a special needs lad.
    The beauty of grass roots feminism is that equality and protection for all benefits everyone and doesn’t deliver advantages to sex attackers and manipulators who play around with the law and try to disguise predatory behaviour with swapping and changing their identity at a whim.

    ”I hate who steals my solitude without, in exchange, offering true company.” - F. Nietzsche



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,182 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Well why don't you ,

    .. I could write the responses myself at this stage it has become that predictable.

    instead of critiquing everyone else's ?

    Give us a chance to examine what you think and say .

    Easy to be a hurler on the ditch .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,263 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    "But why shouldn't I call a bloke in a dress a bloke in a dress, if that is indeed what he is? When did stating such facts become derogatory?"

    Well unless you know that person is a bloke and not a Trans Woman it is derogatory. Its not a fact if a Eoman. Trans Women are Women.

    https://gcn.ie/european-parliament-resolution-trans-women/

    The European Parliament has passed a resolution on gender equality, which contains a declaration that trans women are women.

    If you don't like it you can always go to the UK or Russia or whats left of the USA.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    I’ve written plenty, so fill your boots and run along with your nonsense.

    ”I hate who steals my solitude without, in exchange, offering true company.” - F. Nietzsche



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,501 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    must be true so.



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