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World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

15960626465

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    These "revelations" have been posted on another thread:

    Untitled Image

    So … Epstein wanted two tickets for a Harry Potter dinner but was only given one so was turned away at the door. One of his people threw a bit of a strop over it afterwards. You'll note that JK Rowling wasn't CC:d on the email or involved at all …

    (My thanks to @plodder whom I've quoted above, as well as reposting his screenshot from the same post)

    Unless of course there are other "revelations" about Rowling's alleged links with Epstein? I haven't seen any.

    On a serious side note, it's remarkable how many people are eagerly trying to dilute the horror of the actual abuse and other misdoings carried out by a number of men such as Andrew Mountbatten or Peter Mandelson by dragging in all sorts of vague handwaving. Another example seems to be Sean Woodward, ex Secretary of State for NI whom I first read had met Epstein for drinks (or had asked to meet him) - until I heard him being asked about it, and saying that not only had he never met Epstein, he'd never asked to meet him. Instead what the email actually says is that Ghislaine Maxwell (who had never at that point been accused of anything but whom Woodward, as a journalist and later politician, knew due to her father being a newspaper owner in London) had once contacted Epstein, suggesting that he, Epstein, might be interested in meeting Woodward.

    For whatever reason that didn't happen, and it doesn't even Woodward even knew of this email until it was made public the other day.

    It's obvious that this scattergun spreading of sh1t onto as many people as possible is a tactic, and is exactly what the guilty wish to see happening: if everyone is guilty, then nobody is. Guilt becomes meaningless.

    I have to wonder though why some posters are so eager to be complicit in this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 305 ✭✭Mother Shaboobu


    It's so incredibly desperate - a strong sign of not having much to go on. Why would you need to resort to unfounded rumours if you have facts and cogent arguments at your disposal?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 22,628 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    Mod - @maik3n, drop the "Mouldemort" nonsense and do not suggest that anyone was involved in criminality unless you have verifiable proof, defamation is a bannable offence.

    A lot of people are mentioned in the Epstein files and reputable media organisations stress that being mentioned is not evidence of any wrong doing. I'm going to delete some posts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 305 ✭✭Mother Shaboobu


    You appear to have a personal grudge against him. I think he's excellent.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 8,116 Mod ✭✭✭✭circadian


    I’ve spent a long time reading and mulling over this debate, and I’ve come to the conclusion that people can always find some scientific study, statistic, or anecdote that appears to support their position.

    What is clear is how often these discussions stop being about policy or evidence and start being about dehumanisation.

    Transitioning is not a casual choice. It’s a deeply personal decision that most people will never have to make, and likely never fully understand. In these discussions we routinely reduce that experience to statistics, hypotheticals, and worst case scenarios and often speak about the people involved as if they aren’t real, aren’t present, and aren’t affected by how they’re talked about.

    For most of us, trans people existing openly has little to no impact on our day to day lives. But for trans people, public discourse IS part of their day to day reality, shaping how safe they feel, how they’re treated, and whether they’re seen as human beings or problems to be managed.

    Too often, this debate seems to require stripping empathy from real people. I regularly see references to violent criminals who have transitioned, or want to transition, used as a stick to beat an entire community despite there being no serious evidence that trans people are more prone to violence than anyone else. The same applies to claims about “trans ideology” being taught in schools, when the reality is that children are being taught tolerance and respect for different kinds of people, not indoctrination, and not exclusively about trans people.

    At times, it feels less like a discussion about how to live together in a pluralistic society, and more like a debate over who we’re willing to allow into that society.

    You can bring selectively chosen science, anecdotes, and headline-grabbing shocks to the table, but unless you’ve walked a mile in the shoes of someone who is in this position, empathy should be applied just as rigorously as evidence.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    And what about walking in the shoes of the 11 year old who was abducted and raped by a man dressed as a woman? I use that description because Andrew Miller/Amy George finally chose NOT to be tried as a woman, and said that he was a man.

    All the same, the judge pointed out in the judgment that the child would never have knowingly got into a car with a man. She had presumably been taught at school to "respect people's identity", and so took Miller to be a woman, and got in the car with him.

    Because there is no test that can identify the bad faith actors, the men who will use these opportunities to attack women and children more easily/more often/more safely (for themselves naturally).

    The idea that an abuser wouldn't do it because it would somehow not be "fair play" is laughable. Or it would be if that notion hadn't already led to women and children experiencing life changing attacks. Abusers are always looking out for new opportunities. They have become priests, doctors, social workers and teachers in order to abuse - why on earth would some of them not put on a skirt and some lippy?

    I regularly see references to violent criminals who have transitioned, or want to transition, used as a stick to beat an entire community despite there being no serious evidence that trans people are more prone to violence than anyone else

    By "anyone else" I take it you mean that trans women are no more prone to violence than other men, right? Because they are exactly as prone to violence as other men. Which is to say FAR more so than women. Which is why women are entitled to have places where MEN, including those who identify as trans, are not allowed.

    Unless of course you think that women's safety is unimportant.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 8,116 Mod ✭✭✭✭circadian


    What happened to that child was horrific, and nothing I’ve said or would ever say diminishes the seriousness of sexual violence or the lifelong harm it causes. As a society we should do everything we can to protect children.

    But this example illustrates exactly the problem I’m talking about. Taking an extreme criminal act and using it to indict an entire group of people who had nothing to do with it.

    Abusers don’t need permission, ideology, or social progress to abuse. They already offend in homes, churches, schools, sports clubs, and families, anywhere trust exists regardless of gender identity. In this case, the failure was not “respecting identity,” it was an adult exploiting a child’s trust and lack of safeguarding. That’s a safeguarding failure, not evidence that trans people existing openly creates danger.

    If the logic here were sound, we’d have to conclude that we shouldn’t teach children to trust doctors, priests, teachers, or authority figures either because abusers have exploited all of those roles. Yet we don’t respond by banning professions or erasing entire groups. We respond by improving safeguarding, supervision, and education about consent and safety.

    There is also no evidence that teaching children to respect trans people makes them more vulnerable to abuse. Children are taught many things at school including stranger danger, boundaries, and that adults should not ask them to keep secrets or get into cars. Respecting someone’s identity does not mean suspending all judgment or common sense.

    Finally, framing this as “men putting on a skirt to gain access” ignores the basic reality that sexual predators already have access. They don’t need to pretend to be trans to offend, and there is no pattern showing that trans inclusion increases rates of sexual violence. What does increase harm is stoking fear by implying that an already marginalised group is inherently suspect.

    We can take sexual violence seriously without dehumanising trans people or treating them as a latent threat. If our response to abuse is to strip empathy and rights from innocent people, we haven’t made anyone safer, we’ve just decided who we’re willing to sacrifice to feel safer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Abusers don’t need permission, ideology, or social progress to abuse. They already offend in homes, churches, schools, sports clubs, and families, anywhere trust exists regardless of gender identity. In this case, the failure was not “respecting identity,” it was an adult exploiting a child’s trust and lack of safeguarding. That’s a safeguarding failure, not evidence that trans people existing openly creates danger.

    This argument that women and girls already get raped so let's remove the few remaining safeguards becxause what do another few rapes matter is the most terrible argument.

    Since women and girls are in danger from men, let's start by NOT making it even easier for rapists? What on earth is wrong with that as an argument?

    And to be clear, she wasn't in danger from a woman, she was in danger from a man. She believed that a woman was far less of a danger to her than walking along a road in the dark - and that is true. When I was a child we were told if we got lost to go up to a woman. The risk may not be zero but it's lower than many of the alternatives, including just staying lost. Her mistake was in believing the propaganda that some men are women, and that their level of dangerosity should be evaluated accordingly. Children need to be taught that that isn't true. Otherwise you are actively putting children in danger by teaching them to ignore their own instincts of self preservation.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 8,116 Mod ✭✭✭✭circadian


    That is a grotesque misrepresentation of what I said.

    I did not say “women and girls already get raped so a few more don’t matter.” That’s an appalling thing to attribute to someone, and it says more about how desperate you are to win this argument than about anything I’ve written. I’ve been explicit, repeatedly, that sexual violence is serious and that safeguarding matters.

    What I DID say is that using a single horrific crime to collectively indict an entire group of people is not safeguarding, it’s scapegoating.

    Your argument hinges on the claim that recognising trans people as people “removes safeguards.” It doesn’t. There is no safeguard that consists of “assume women are safe and men are dangerous.” That has never been how real safeguarding works, and pretending otherwise is rewriting history to suit your fear.

    You say the child was in danger “from a man, not a woman.” The danger came from a predator who lied. Predators lie about who they are all the time. Their intentions, their trustworthiness, their authority. If your safeguarding model collapses the moment someone lies, it was never a safeguard to begin with.

    Teaching children to respect people’s identities does not mean teaching them to override self-preservation, ignore boundaries, or get into cars with strangers. If you believe that’s what schools are teaching, then you are either misinformed or deliberately conflating tolerance with obedience. Those are not the same thing.

    And let’s be very clear about the logical endpoint of what you’re arguing:
    You are proposing that because some men abuse, all trans women should be treated as latent threats and excluded despite there being no evidence that trans inclusion increases sexual violence. That is collective punishment, justified by fear, not protection.

    You keep invoking women and children as a rhetorical shield, but what you’re actually advocating is a world where we replace evidence based safeguarding with vibes, instincts, and suspicion of a minority group. That approach has failed women and children for decades.

    If you want to talk seriously about reducing sexual violence, talk about supervision, boundaries, consent education, and accountability, things that actually work. If instead you want to keep using select crimes to justify dehumanising an entire community, then at least be honest about what you’re doing.

    But do not accuse me of indifference to rape victims because I refuse to accept your framing. That accusation is beneath the discussion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 305 ✭✭Mother Shaboobu


    I'm the opposite - I think of cross-dressing predators as completely separate to genuine trans and gender non conforming people, and also figure that a lot of trans people must be ticked off at the chancers attempting to redefine what trans is. It was never just cross-dressing.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Your first paragraph is true but that's why we've Research Practice & Methodology to evaluate what is good and bad science. I think most degrees and masters have a research project and you'll do a module in this. Obviously PhDs will too. It's pretty basic stuff like how was the sample collected, what's the sample size, what's the methodology, how does this methodology fit in with other studies, what's the current research out there on the topic, an evaluation of statistics, and are the results repeatable are the questions you'll ask of a research paper.

    Not all scientific studies or stats are equal and in some academic areas there's a major problem here as most studies turn out to not have repeatable results. So much so there's a name for it, it's called the Replication crisis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    I know you didn't say those words, but that is literally what that argument means. It's not as though you're the first person to have said it, so I'm not accusing you of realising what the argument you have unthinkingly repeated actually means - but that is what it means: it's the only way in which it is an argument at all.

    Otherwise it's an irrelevance: women and children get attacked by men. We know that. It's not a reason to remove safeguards for any one category of males though.

    Use any other category and you can see why that's not an argument for exempting one category of males from the basic safety rules (which are already minimal) such as separate sex dormitories, rape crisis centres, prisons etc:

    Women and children get attacked by priests. Not all priests are rapists. Nevertheless, some men joined the priesthood in order to get easier access to women and children, so society realised (belatedly) that they couldn't assume that all priests were safe for children to be around.

    If someone had said at the time: "I don't agree that we need safeguards for priests - they are different from other men, and anyway, children get raped by lots of men who aren't priests, so abusers don't need to become priests to abuse, so we don't need to take any measures to keep them safe from priests" you'd have seen the problem straightaway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,230 ✭✭✭Enduro


    You can bring selectively chosen science, anecdotes, and headline-grabbing shocks to the table, but unless you’ve walked a mile in the shoes of someone who is in this position, empathy should be applied just as rigorously as evidence.

    I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with that at all. I've been participating in this broad debate mainly from a sports context. And there is plenty of data and evidence, and ongoing research in this area, which I will not ignore. It is a far superior basis for fair decision-making than "feelings".

    The behaviour of the "Ignore the evidence" style of argument in the sports context has led me to see a similar poor basis from the same category of campaigners in the broader medical and legal contexts. It's been quite an eye-opening experience. And I would say it is even more important that Medical procedures (which is the context of this thread) and laws are based on data and evidence, and not just on "feelings" and "being kind".



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 8,116 Mod ✭✭✭✭circadian


    I’m well aware of research methodology, I hold two MSc degrees.

    My point is about what happens when complex, messy human experiences are reduced to a tug of war of studies.

    In areas like this where the evidence base is evolving, outcomes are probabilistic, and lived experience matters, people on both sides reach for papers that confirm what they already believe. Methodological critique then becomes a proxy battle, while the people being discussed disappear behind abstracts and confidence intervals.

    When the conversation becomes “which set of studies wins,” we stop asking how those findings are being interpreted, generalised, or used to justify real-world harm or exclusion. Weak studies get used to argue that trans people are inherently suspect, equally weak studies sometimes get used to oversell certainty or universality on the other side. Neither approach treats people as people.

    So yes, scrutinise methods, replication, and bias. Absolutely.
    But recognising the limits of the evidence is precisely why we shouldn’t let this debate collapse into “the science says this or that, therefore these people matter less.” When that happens, the problem isn’t science, it’s how we’re choosing to use it.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Single sex spaces have actually worked pretty well for women. So much so that some people think they don't need to exist, in a way similar to vaccines, but no they do need to exist. In a single sex space if you allow someone of the opposite sex in it's no longer a single sex space. When you do this you are removing rights for women.

    Take what happened in the Edinburgh Rape Crisis centre for example.

    "A charity chief executive has apologised "unreservedly" to rape survivors affected by failings at a support centre in Edinburgh.

    Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (ERCC) came under fire when a review found it had failed to provide women-only spaces for 16 months, and that its CEO - trans woman Mridul Wadhwa - had not acted professionally or understood the limits of her authority."

    "Rape Crisis Scotland then commissioned legal consultant Vicky Ling to review the Edinburgh service.

    Ms Ling found that the centre had failed to protect women-only spaces for 16 months and that Ms Wadhwa "did not understand the limits on her role’s authority, when to refer decisions to trustees and failed to set professional standards of behaviour".

    The report also said there was "evidence that the actions of some ERCC staff had caused damage to some survivors", and that concerns had been raised that some women were "excluding themselves from approaching Rape Crisis Centres including ERCC" because of their approach to gender identity.

    Ms Ling also said she had been made aware that some professionals had heard that "some survivors did not feel safe using the centre"."

    "The following year she (Wadhwa) was interviewed on the Guilty Feminist podcast, and was asked about rape survivors who might be uncomfortable with the presence of trans women in spaces such as rape crisis centres.

    In her response, she said that “sexual violence can happen to bigoted people too” and that if rape victims hold “unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma”."

    Charity boss apologises to rape survivors over crisis centre failings

    What this article should have pointed out that the trans status is irrelevant. What is relevant is a persons sex and Wadhwa is male.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    The Edinburgh rape Crisis centre is not the only one. The Brighton rape crisis centre, despite having last year settled on a lawsuit and agreed that they do have to provide a same sex counsellor for a woman who requests one, have STILL not done so.

    To be clear, the woman concerned was not trying to prevent BRC from having mixed groups in which trans women could be present as rape victims and/or as counsellors: she wanted for there also to be ONE group which was single sex.

    How can it not be clear to people that this is about removing women's rights?

    I think the sad truth is that a large number of men and a surprising number of women still don't think that women should have any rights that men don't approve of.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Everybody should be free to live as they wish and change their gender as long as it doesn't affect anyone else.

    Most of the scientific discussion on here is about gender paediatric medicine and sport. Id argue that in these 2 areas the evidence is base isn't evolving it's dissolving. It's good that you know about research methodology then you should also know that if all of the justifications for a medical treatment fall apart under basic questions then you have to ask should you continue offering that treatment.

    I agree with it's how you choose to use the science but many in favour of gender paediatric medicine are using it in such a way that I would consider to be outright lies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    First major US medical organisation to disavow medical transition for under 19s.

    Some cynical (but maybe accurate) replies

    Screenshot 2026-02-03 at 22.13.27.png

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    [Delete]



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,042 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    A bit late but they clearly know what's coming, and it won't be good. Have any of the gender advocates on this thread actually addressed any of this or are they still pretending not to know anything about it while throwing out straw men and "be kind" platitudes? Sorry, that was a rhetorical question lol.



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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 8,116 Mod ✭✭✭✭circadian


    Thank you for the responses, they have largely validated the point I was making.

    Across multiple replies, the same pattern keeps repeating: complex human questions are reduced to extreme cases, institutional failures, and rigid categories, and then used to justify treating an entire group as inherently suspect. Whether it’s sports policy, single-sex spaces, or crisis centres, the argument is always the same, take a real harm, flatten the context, and turn it into a moral verdict on people who are not responsible for that harm.

    None of this is an argument against evidence, safeguarding, single sex services, or accountability. It is an argument against using selective evidence, analogies, and worst-case scenarios as a substitute for empathy and then pretending that doing so is value-neutral or purely “scientific.” Evidence can inform policy without being used to dehumanise. When it’s used to sort people into acceptable and unacceptable categories, that’s a choice, not an inevitability.

    The fact that so many replies immediately reinterpret my point as “ignore evidence,” “remove safeguards,” or “feelings over facts” only underlines what I was saying about how quickly empathy is stripped out of this discussion.

    I’ve explained my position clearly, and I don’t think further participation on my part is going to be productive or worth my time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    Apparently, the AMA (by far the largest medical org in the US) has jumped on the bandwagon saying they agree with the move. And as is being suggested, that by the ASPS breaking ranks, it reduces the risks for the other organisations. The timing makes it fairly clear this is motivated by money rather than any sudden new insight that they have obtained.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,825 ✭✭✭plodder


    double post

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    I don't think you have explained your position clearly. We already do treat an entire group as inherently suspect, that's why single sex spaces exist in the first place.

    Talking about empathy being stripped out of this discussion is great but there's never been any of that shown to women.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,674 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    If a 13 year old came to their parents and said they wanted to get a full, Maori style facial tattoo, would the parents allow them?

    Obviously not unless you are a complete lunatic yet there are many parents advocating / supporting kids chemically altering their bodies forever or cutting off large chunks of themselves.

    There comes a point when common sense has to prevail and you say fcuk feelings. When they turn 18 they can do what they bloody well please if they so desire but up until that point, the adults need to be the adults.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭greyday


    where can this evidence be gathered to be investigated? The organisations advocating for these procedures have been very reluctant to allow any such evidence to be gathered after transition, this has resulted in certain inferences being made, if follow ups were carried out which would be normal in most other areas of medicine then the evidence could be properly analysed, unfortunately it has not been gathered or not been made available which had led to scepticism as to the motives of those involved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭aero2k


    There's a lot in there. Let's take a few of the phrases you've used, and see what follows:

    "Complex human questions reduced to extreme cases"

    So, someone struggling with all that puberty brings, possibly including sexuality, becomes a simple case of born in the wrong body, treated with surgery and drugs - could this be more extreme?

    "Using worst case scenarios as a substitute for empathy"

    Could you be talking about the clinicians who guilted parents into transitioning their kids on threat of suicide, as an alternative to the practical but difficult demonstration of empathy by actually staying with their kid as they navigate through whatever difficult experience they are having?

    What could be more "dehumanising" than reducing an actual person to a collection of body parts, and then saying some of them are so wrong they need surgical correction and a lifetime on drugs?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,230 ✭✭✭Enduro


    When it’s used to sort people into acceptable and unacceptable categories, that’s a choice, not an inevitability.

    In the context of sports, this statement is complete and utter nonsense.

    All the issues in sports WRT transgender participation are about Sport Categories. Sports categories exist to enable fair competition within a categoriesed group of people. The Categories are the whole point. To participate in these categories, people MUST be categorised. It's the whole point of the categories. To ensure fairness, categories need rules to define who is eligible to participate in these categories. Ideally, these should be based on well-defined and measurable characteristics.

    For example, in age-based categories, people will be categorised by their age as defined by their date of birth, irrespective of how old they feel, or what age they would like to be. This is not discrimination or dehumanising.

    For weight-based categories, people will be categorised by their measured weight on calibrated scales, irrespective of what weight they feel they are, or what weight they would like to be. This is not discrimination or dehumanising.

    And for Sex-based categories, people will be categorised by their biological sex, irrespective of what gender they feel they are, or what gender they identify as. This is not discrimination or dehumanising.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,750 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    Sadly there is, you just don't think so because it's worked out ok for you but there are loads of people being fed nonsense about potentially being transgender just because they feel a bit awkward in their teenage years or are potentially gay.

    Nobody said anyone as being forced to transition, just that there heads were being filled with nonsense about them not being a girl because they might like stuff boys traditionally like and vice versa.

    Like this nonsensical graph

    image.png


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 305 ✭✭Mother Shaboobu


    That graph has to be satire surely.



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