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World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

15961636465

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭donaghs


    I've listened Ronan McCrea on a few podcasts now. And he lays out his points very well.

    There's a lot to discuss, probably needs its own thread. I think the election of Trump proves his point about how pissing off the majority of the population can lead to other negative unintended consequences. e.g. that some of his electorate would prefer a more mainstream Democratic candidate (like Biden was supposed to be in 2020) - but were prepared to accept the risks of Trump in power as the Democrats wouldn't get serious about immigration, and culture issues like trans ideology in schools and sports etc. So while most people in western societies are fine with gay rights, with JD Vance and other close to power, there is now potential for a rollback of some gay rights.

    It must be a sign of the times that McCrea can get away with calmly laying out his arguments - without hordes of talking heads, NGOs, and online mobs demanding he be banished from society.

    He's clear on how Trans Gay/Bi people dont really have anything in common, in terms of what defines them. He actually made the point in one chat that a straight and gay person probably have more in common in that there is no gender identity issues ,just a difference of biological sex attraction. (that differs from Stonewalls modern definition of homosexuality as being about gender etc, and he's lots to criticise about Stonewall.)

    Interesting to hear someone publicly saying that calling someone LGBTQIA+ is totally meaningless. It doesnt tell you anything about them, as there are so many possibilities. Some definitions have the "+" "sign to recognize the limitless sexual orientations and gender identities ". https://www.hrc.org/resources/glossary-of-terms

    The role of corporate funding and pushing the modern version of pride day month (with dogmatic trans ideology) on their employees is examined too. Again, alienating the majority of people who are liberal and tolerant, but rankle with enforced ideology and participation. He makes a great point that being gay is not an issue in such workplaces, that this has happened in the law and the culture largely WITHOUT any corporate assistance. That these corporations are "fair weather friends" - they werent there when gay people needed them, and can be seen backtracking already in some cases with a few threats from Trump.

    Brave pointing out that gay acceptance is not a global thing. Its only really a bubble of some western liberal countries. Large scale immigration from non-gay friendly countries will eventually make an impact: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/26/birmingham-anderton-park-primary-muslim-protests-lgbt-teaching-rights

    The radical fringe appear to be in control of "the movement" currently - putting trans ideology at the forefront. He points out how when the mainstream of gay people, not the extreme voices, got involved in campaigns like gay marriage, that they made a convincing case to the rest of society and won the day. The radical gay movement had mocked marriage as assimilationist, patriarchal and heteronormative. He makes an interesting comparisons with Malcolm X versus MLK in the black civil rights movement. Malcolm seems "cooler" in that he was more strident and uncompromising - but when you consider what he achieved, it was almost nothing - apart from maybe consciousness raising. Malcolm X actually held extreme segregationist views (ableit from a Black superiority perspective) - he did moderate his views later, but was killed soon after by his own movement. MLK worked with mainstream society and government, and was the driving force behind getting mainstream society to accept and support the civil rights movement - and got actual legislation passed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Very true. Another example is the fact that Pride marches were originally intended to show ordinary people that gays were perfectly normal people: neighbours, people with normal jobs, with families etc. That they’ve been taken over by fetishists, including many who are not even homosexual but call themselves “queer” all the same, can’t be what the originators of Pride intended. It’s the exact opposite.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,827 ✭✭✭plodder


    .. with JD Vance and other close to power, there is now potential for a rollback of some gay rights.

    Just on that. The US Supreme Court threw out a case a couple of weeks ago that tried to rollback gay rights

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2y1z70lwlo

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,827 ✭✭✭plodder


    David McCullagh spoke with a TCD prof of Neuroscience yesterday (last item on program) about a new study that identifies four "turning points" in brain development at the ages of 9, 32, 66 and 83.

    Apparently, our brains aren't fully developed until the early 30's (quite a bit later than previously thought) and this relates specifically to decision making skills.

    You can be sure of course that this topic wasn't upper most in their minds while discussing it. Otherwise they might not even have covered it.

    https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/today-with-david-mccullagh/2025/1126/1545914-today-with-david-mccullagh-wednesday-26-november-2025/

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,008 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Very true, well said,well said and to the point 👍️



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Hannah Barnes has written about the puberty blocker trial in the UK. There's some amazing quotes in it as not surprisingly it's a mess where you can predict the outcome of the trial already.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,042 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    A very sad and shocking story featuring the aforementioned Helen Webberly. This "doctor" is recklessly prescribing dangerous medications in potentially lethal doses and should be in jail for what she is doing kids. There is no way in hell that this severely troubled, autistic child should have been affirmed in her belief

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/574476a8-ad2e-4a9c-a121-78ac19448401?shareToken=06929c580b1f22bfc7cd8fd12e8d119e



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    I hope something comes of this. I think a public inquiry into all the 'scientific' claims made by The Endocrine Society etc related to not just 'gender-affirming care' but all their claims about gender should have happened a long time ago. Although this isn't quite that it's a step in the right direction.

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/florida-brings-down-the-hammer-on-medical-groups-that-pushed-trans-procedures-on-children



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,230 ✭✭✭Enduro


    The Cass report is probably the closest we've had to that to date.

    Unfortunately, I think this Florida case is just going to be another political battle in the, ironically, hugely binary world of American politics, where subtlety has gone out the window, and people just row in on "their" side and disagree with the other side. It's like supporting a sports team, but more extreme and less rational. Dem vs Rep, libs vs Cons, Red Vs Blue… And this is being pitched by one side, who will relish demolishing a sacred article of faith of the other side. Nobody (well, not many anyway) will change their mind over there, no matter what the outcome, as they've already picked their team.

    You'd get more rational arguments, sense and subtlety from a bunch of Liverpool vs ManU supporters debating about which team is the best ever.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,827 ✭✭✭plodder


    That is very sad - particularly how gender dysphoric children can be weaponised by their estranged parents. I don't know if you clicked on the linked article "How we handled our child's request to change gender". It's a slightly more positive story and shows there are some experts inside the system who seem to see the bigger picture and are not captured by the ideology.

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/parents-gender-questioning-children-puberty-blocker-trial-2pkkrxncz

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,600 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Hannah Barnes has written about the new puberty blocker trial in the UK.

    NHS puberty blocker trial information “ignores or minimises critically important risks” - New Statesman

    It's not surprising that it's a mess as so many medical professional's don't seem to recognise what the Dutch did when they first medicalised gender distressed minors. They viewed it as a medical pathway starting with blocker then cross sex hormones then surgery if applicable and that these kids were transgender. In the first, and I think only, follow up study they mentioned the blocker could be used as a giving the patient "time to think" and it seems to be here that everyone is taking as their starting point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,042 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    A woman in the US has been awarded $2 million after a court found it was medical malpractice that she was approved for, and received, a mastectomy at 16 years old. She later went on to destransition, like the majority of these kids do except now she is permanently disfigured. How anyone thinks that children can consent to these types of procedures is beyond me. I'm sure that this is just the start of it and there will be many more cases like this. People are going to look back at the past 10 years and wonder how it was ever allowed to happen. Its one of the biggest medical scandals in history imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,827 ✭✭✭plodder


    Interesting and not surprising.

    Ryan suggested the case is just the beginning of detransitioner lawsuits he’s been following and that, ultimately, these sorts of results could discourage doctors from advising or performing these types of life-altering surgeries on minors.

    “My sources suggest that tort law might permanently destroy this field,” he said.

    US market based medicine at its finest. I think there were fewer than 10 gender clinics in the US 20 years ago. The number then mushroomed to over 100.

    There's a lot of more info in the Twitter thread referenced

    Apparently, a number of previous cases were quietly settled and sadly some others ran into "statute of limitations". I particularly liked the screenshot of the poster who a few weeks ago was calling the plaintiff's lawyer "an ambulance chaser" who sounds like "Lionel Hutz from The Simpsons". I bet she's not saying that now.

    Over two dozen similar trials under way.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Well, if you believe kids know their gender identity aged 5, then it's not much of a leap to think they can consent to having their sexuality permanently erased at 16.

    I expect there'll be a lot more of these cases.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I wonder will there be a decline in trans numbers in Australia with the ban on social media for under 16s? Social media influences seem to get mentioned quite a lot in these cases. Tumblr seems to be one of the worst (going off Hannah Barnes' book on the subject anyway), though I don't see it on the ban list.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,827 ✭✭✭plodder


    Tumblr isn't on the banned list because it goes under the radar (the radar being pointed mostly at the tech bros, primarily Musk) and presumably it gets a free pass from activists who approve of the content on it.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,042 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Going by my own kid, teens dont really use Tumblr anymore, my daughter had never even heard of it. Pinterest seems to have taken its place



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 895 ✭✭✭maik3n


    Well I guess that would pre-suppose that one buys into the whole myth/meme of it all just being a social contagion.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Not really. It's a clear available social experiment; the results should be of interest to everyone interested in this topic

    The link between the two featured very prominently in Hannah Barnes' book on the topic. I'm not sure what your grounds for dismissing it as a pure myth/meme are?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,266 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    You must love a good torture to listen to him. No thank. I would not listen to him even if I was paid to. A self absorbed all about me is all Mcullagh is. Its all about him.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,266 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    I have said it before and I will say it here again. There is no Trans idology. Some of us are just born different its as simple as that. We are no threat to anyone else. We are a tiny percentage of the Worlds population and we just want to live our lives in peace.

    Oh and yes I did know I was supposed to be a girl when I was 5 but had to live a lie for too long because of society.

    No one is forcing any child to transition.

    There is no Trans idology being being pushed into schools or anywhere else its just about getting people to be acepting of different people and tolarant to them. No one goes in and says, hey you boy you have to become a girl now because I say so.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    What do you think about the court case referenced about, AMKC?

    It isn't all about you, you know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,827 ✭✭✭plodder


    I agree no-one is forcing anyone to transition, and it might be right for some, and it might have been right for you. But, i don't think you can put yourself inside the heads of other people, any more than I can. Many teenagers who weren't dysphoric at age 5 like you, want to explore identity and may think they are transgender, but it may be a phase or fad that passes like other teenage fads imo.

    I think the world should be accepting of trans people, but they need to accept there are situations where biological reality takes priority in my opinion. If we could only accept that principle then the fact that some/many women are happy to include trans women in their activities, it could be a way forward. Some places and activities would be trans inclusive and others would not be.

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,266 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    What court case? The one in the UK?

    "I agree no-one is forcing anyone to transition, and it might be right for some, and it might have been right for you."

    Thank you

    "But, i don't think you can put yourself inside the heads of other people, any more than I can"

    No I certainly can not nore would I want to.

    "Many teenagers who weren't dysphoric at age 5 like you, want to explore identity and may think they are transgender, but it may be a phase or fad that passes like other teenage fads imo."

    Very true. That is why there is psychologists to discover if a person is really trans or not.

    "I think the world should be accepting of trans people, but they need to accept there are situations where biological reality takes priority in my opinion. If we could only accept that principle then the fact that some/many women are happy to include trans women in their activities, it could be a way forward. Some places and activities would be trans inclusive and others would not be."

    Thank you. Yes I agree depending on when a person has transitioned if they were younger or older there might be some sports for instance that we can or can not play. Like I would never volunteer to play Womens Rugby or any Rugby for that matter.

    I do not think we should be all painted with the same stick though. A Trans Woman who never went through the horrors of male puberty and gets her hormones and surgeries early should be allowed play in Female Rugby, GAA or Soccer etc or any other sport. She is no more stonger or faster than a Cis female.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    The court case mentioned on this page of the thread. The detransitioner awarded $2m for medical negligence.

    When you look at the close on 100% affirmation/diagnosis rate noted by Barnes, then it's hard to agree that there's no such thing as trans ideology. And it's incredibly damaging, as the court cases (you can include Kiera Bell and others) are now showing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    That is why there is psychologists to discover if a person is really trans or not.

    But if psychologists can eliminate those people who aren't "really" trans, then how come someone like Isla Bryson, a double rapist who changed gender while in prison awaiting trial for rape, was so easily able to slip through the net and get sent to a women's prison?

    Bryson was intially going to be registered as a FEMALE sex offender and was sent to a women's prison, and was only moved to the male prison because of the massive public outcry. So while it was blindingly obvious to the general public that Bryson was pulling a fast one, it hadn't been clear at all to the authorities, who had no qualms about sending him to a female prison:

    So if they can't readily identify someone like that as being a deliberate fake (I assume it was deliberate: if Bryson was "genuine" then that makes the conflict with women's rights even more stark). But if they can't identify Bryson as "not really trans", then what are the chances they would ever be able to work out that a confused, unhappy kid was actually mistaken in their genuine belief that they were trans? Someone like Keira Bell for instance, who was convinced that she was trans, until gradually, after a double mastectomy and trying to live "as a man" she realised that she wasn't a man, and that, in her own words (now, as an adult):

    "What was really going on was that I was a girl insecure in my body who had experienced parental abandonment, felt alienated from my peers, suffered from anxiety and depression, and struggled with my sexual orientation."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,266 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    "But if psychologists can eliminate those people who aren't "really" trans, then how come someone like Isla Bryson, a double rapist who changed gender 

    while in prison awaiting trial

     for rape, was so easily able to slip through the net and get sent to a women's prison?"

    I don't know but I do know that people like that make me angry becsuse they make it so much harder for the rest if us genuine Trsns Women and Trans Men to live our lifes in peace. Thats all we want just to live our lives just as any other person.

    As for that Keira Bell one I don't like him/her. I think he/she knew what she was doing and just done this now for the money.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    You think she knew what she was doing but went through major invasive surgery for the money? (And what money?)

    I think extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and given you've provided no evidence, it's hard to see why anyone should accept your argument unfortunately



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    I don't know but I do know that people like that make me angry becsuse they make it so much harder for the rest if us genuine Trsns Women and Trans Men to live our lifes in peace.

    I completely agree, but unless/until there's a solution, anyone who genuinely cares about women's rights and about keeping women safe can't just dismiss this as somehow not a real problem. There is a conflict with women's rights.

    Also, basically no trans people were prepared to say 5 years ago what you just said above (actually Brianna Wu may be an exception TBF).

    If a number of prominent trans people had stood up for JK Rowling when she began getting death threats, and had pointed out that she was making a reasonable point and referring to the risks posed by people like Isla Bryson, I'd be more inclined to believe in their good faith now. But they didn't.

    I've no idea why you think Keira Bell is in it "for the money" - she got major invasive surgery much of which can never really be repaired. If she really did all that for the money (and doesn't seem to have got much money anyway AFAICT) then she must have mental health issues that should surely have made her an unsuitable candidate for surgery in the first place.

    So when you say that psychologists can tell who's real and who isn't, what evidence do you have that it's true? How many people have they refused because they decided the person wasn't trans?? As I recall even Barbie Kardashian, who IMO is really just a tragic mentally-ill person, the mental illness having been caused by massive childhood trauma, hasn't been able to be "detected" as not trans either. Although TBF Kardashian seems to have avoided any risk of being "outed" as "not really trans" by just refusing to cooperate with the psychologists. So without any counter opinion, by default a GRC was provided.

    In fact in the ten years since the law has been in place in Ireland, 1,544 GRCs have been accepted, and only six have been refused. Out of the 24 applications made by 16- and 17-year-olds, none have ever been rejected. So it doesn't seem like there's any sort of genuine control happening at all.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,042 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Yes you are right, genuine trans people like yourself who have felt this way from a very young age and persist with these feelings, are a tiny percentage of people. What is going on now with the dramatic surge in kids identifying as trans is nothing like this.

    For most of these kids its very clearly a social contagion that runs within friendship groups and is now on the wane thankfully. Ive seen it with my own eyes. The odds that at least 5 kids (all female), out of a grade of just 40 are actually trans are pretty much statistically impossible. This is what has happened at my kids school over the past 2 years. As it happens, currently only 1 still identifies as trans but makes zero effort to actually look like the opposite sex. The trend is over.

    Allowing children to make life altering decisions, over what for most is a phase, is a huge mistake. A psychological evaluation to get to the bottom of the feelings and to see if the person really is trans is now considered "gatekeeping" and likened to conversion therapy. Affirmation and eventual medicalisation is the only acceptable option for the activists who for some bizarre reason have been allowed to dictate treatment protocol and policy over the past several years



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