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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,089 ✭✭✭50HX


    Rob Kearney thinks it will be Harry to start in Paris.

    It maybe a case of horses for courses but 3 in 2 doesn't go.

    Sam is one position only

    Harry at a huge push could fill in at 12 during a game

    Crowley oddly enough with the poorest of current form out of the 3 can cover 3 slots.

    It'll be interesting.

    My own view is Sam is the starter for this year's 6N's & Farrell prefers him so its time for him to back with WC coming into focus pretty quickly.

    None of the 3 tick all the boxes so I don't think any of us can have any gripe with any 10 selection for this year's 6N's based on the form of all 3 since AI's



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,890 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I think what annoys people isn't that we don't play the Ireland XV in the 6 Nations but the fact we didn't in Autumn because we are still pretending these are test matches like it's the 1970s and not friendlies where we should be trying things out.

    It's hard not to be cynical about all the PR bullsht around Soldiers Field part deux and the South Africa game where you would swear they had to hand over the World Cup if we won.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    I had a look back at the players Andy Farrell has given a debut to who were 25 years or younger since coming into the role, and think there is a solid argument to make that he has a clear willingness to back young players who may not have a lot of provincial experience at that time.

    Ireland have given debuts to 32 players under the age of 25 since Feb 2020 (when Farrell took over). The median age of this group on making their debut was 22 yrs 10 mths.

    7 21-year olds made their debut in this window: Caelan Doris, Craig Casey, Ryan Baird, Joe McCarthy, Gus McCarthy, Sam Prendergast & Hugh Gavin).

    10 players were 22 making their debut: Ronan Kelleher, Harry Byrne, Tom O'Toole, James Hume, Cian Prendergast, Jack Crowley, Tom Stewart, Jamie Osborne, Jack Boyle & Paddy McCarthy.

    8 players were 23 making their debut: Max Deegan, Shane Daly, Gavin Coombes, Robert Baloucoune, Dan Sheehan, Mack Hansen, Michael Lowry & Cormac Izuchukwu.

    7 players were 24 making their debut: Will Connors, Hugo Keenan, Paul Boyle, Tom Clarkson, Darragh Murray, Alex Kendellen & Ben Murphy.

    12 players out of 32 had played less than 1,000 provincial minutes when making their debut (Will Connors just misses out on 1,001 mins). Paddy McCarthy is the lowest (at 275 mins), followed by Gus McCarthy (318 mins) and Ronan Kelleher (460 mins). Other guys <1,000 mins are: Hugh Gavin (555 mins), Dan Sheehan (566 mins), Joe McCarthy (633 mins), Jack Crowley (732 mins), Jack Boyle (756 mins), Sam Prendergast (759 mins), Craig Casey (859 mins), Ryan Baird (961 mins) and Cormac Izuchukwu (998 mins). As expected, average age for this cohort is young at 22 yrs 1 mth.

    4 players had over 3,000 mins of provincial experience when making their debut: Alex Kendellen (3,622 mins), Michael Lowry (3,462 mins), Paul Boyle (3,388) and Jamie Osborne (3,187 mins). Average age for this cohort is 23 yrs 7 mths (Jamie Osborne an outlier, making his debut at just 22 yrs 7 mths, but already having 3,187 mins of experience).

    Median number of starts for a player making their debut was 16, caps 28 and minutes 1,135.

    If Edwin Edogbo makes his debut this month, he'll be almost bang in line with the average age (he'll be 23 yrs 1 month), and will join the cohort who made their debut with <1,000 mins (he's on 969 mins today).

    Nathan Doak will be a big outlier - he'll be 24 yrs 1 mth or so, but he's already on 4,917 mins for Ulster (60 starts, 104 caps).

    Caelan Doris is another name that really jumps out for attention - he was just 21 yrs 9 mths old making his debut (in Farrell's first game in Feb 2020), but had already amassed 1,677 mins for Leinster at that point (21 starts, 29 games).

    The median number of total Irish caps for this group is 5. Most experienced are Caelan Doris (53 caps), then Hugo Keenan (46 caps), Ronan Kelleher (41 caps). 4 players have 1 solitary cap (Kendellen & Gavin from last summer, then Michael Lowry and Paul Boyle). 12 players have 10 or more caps, 20 have 9 or fewer.

    An interesting, but maybe not unexpected stat is that of the cohort who went on to win 10 caps or more, the median provincial minutes at time of making their debut was just 910 mins, whereas for the group on 9 or less caps it jumps to 1,523 mins, and is a little higher again for the group on 5 or less caps - kind of implying the coaches didn't really fancy these players anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,339 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    I think the best option for the 3 is the one who isn’t involved.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Interestingly, Sam has played a good bit at 15 of late for Leinster. I think he works quite well there in some ways, but obviously his defence is absolutely way below standard for it.

    I think if Byrne starts (which I think is the least likely outcome) then it will be Sam on the bench. Sam starting I'd expect Crowley.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭Lancey Howard


    Interesting that the 3 players <500 provincial minutes are all in the front row, where players are more likely to be need longer apprenticeships

    More credit to Farrell for trusting them



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    This is since he took charge, but the point I've been making all along, at least, is that I felt - particularly Autumn last season - was that he was becoming increasingly more conservative.

    That's borne out by your stats above, if we look at the year each of those 32 players got their debut:

    Years

    Year in Cycle

    # Debuts

    2020

    1

    6

    2021

    2

    9

    2022

    3

    5

    2023

    RWC

    1

    2024

    1

    5

    2025

    2

    6

    2023 being the RWC year, but presumably we can expect similar in 2027.

    And I've gone into detail previously about how it's not so much the number of debutants, as the number of minutes (or lack of) those debutants subsequently get. At least prior to the AI's, we were materially behind all other countries I looked at.

    I think we've seen some improvements this set of AI's and in the 6 Nations squad (albeit it some of those coming through injury).

    I still think there are some areas in the squad where it's vital we see some change / others getting more minutes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I wouldn't be at all confident of Sam having to fill in at 15 for Ireland, tbh.

    Personally think Crowley is the obvious candidate for the 22 jersey, particularly if Farrell wants to go 6/2 at any point.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Oh god, me neither. Just find it interesting that he has been playing there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭typhoony


    Starts for Leinster against Connacht tomorrow no real surprise i did expect him to be capped sooner



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    I think it's indicative of a needs must approach too - long standing players move on and create a clear need.

    • Hooker was a real concern post 2019 RWC (Rory Best & Sean Cronin moving on), then Kelleher and Sheehan emerged (Sheehan virtually from nowhere) and actually upgraded the position.
    • LHP - we just didn't have options there really for a long time. Healy moving on has necessitated giving minutes early to Jack Boyle & Paddy McCarthy. I don't realistically think they could have been involved too much sooner than they were.
    • Out Half - Prendergast & Crowley are on the list too of sub 1,000 mins guys - obviously due to Sexton moving on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, but you can't just magic up the players. I don't realistically think Paddy McCarthy & Jack Boyle were ready a whole earlier than they actually got their caps (part of that was down to Paddy Mc missing virtually a whole season with injury).

    There has been a clear willingness from them too to give more caps to guys like Edwin Edogbo, Tom Ahern, Cormac Izuchukwu and a few others, but they seem to be injured virtually every time an international window comes around.

    There's also the fact that the list of guys in my list is just the caps of players <25 making their debut. Of total players newly capped, Farrell gave out 23 new caps in the first stage of the last cycle (so in 2020 and 2021) and has given out 18 caps in the first two years of this cycle (2024 & 2025), hardly a massive disparity considering he was new to the role in 2020 and would have put his own stamp on it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    He got a really bad shoulder injury on his first game for Leinster A against Munster A in Oct or November 2024, and missed virtually the rest of that season. Missed the Irish U20s too because of this.

    He's back back in the mix this season, but had fallen behind Andrew Sparrow a bit (same cohort from an Academy perspective). Great to see him making his debut now, he's still only 20 years old. I don't know how much earlier really you ever see THPs getting capped.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Personally think Boyle should've seen more gametime over Healy (having Healy on the bench was a massive risk in case Porter got injured imo), but I still point back to the argument that it's not just about debutants, it's about the minutes they subsequently get.

    Fwiw, looking at all the players he's given debuts to, rather than just <25, backs up exactly what I've been saying.

    If you look at the same point in the cycle, in 2024 Farrell gave debuts to 6 players vs 11 in 2020. That's a big disparity.

    image.png

    This tallies with what my perception was - that we have seen some improvements in the last set of AI fixtures this season, but the previous round in 2024, imo Farrell was more conservative than he needed to be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,089 ✭✭✭50HX


    He has the kicking game if he had to go back to 15 but nowhere near the speed to cover that position.

    Just saw the Leinster team announced.

    I think SP is nailed starter in Paris with Crowley on the bench



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, but I think some of that was we toured SA in summer 2024, so not really a venue to be unloading a host of debutants. If we'd toured say Argentina or even Australia instead, then I'd have expected the debutant numbers to be a lot higher.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭typhoony


    Leinster are definitely willing to bring in players who are on the fringes, if only Farrell would be a bit more imaginative. The only area where they need players coming through are at centre and maybe scrumhalf, gunne for me has improved from the games i've seen.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Sure, but Gunne is in the Ireland A/XV squad and I suspect will start, and that is absolutely where he belongs. He has no business being in the main squad at the moment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 362 ✭✭big-al




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,481 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Some interesting selections this weekend. By my reckoning there are 6 players likely to be starting against France starting for their provinces.

    The biggest surprise is Jack Boyle. I would have expected him to be wrapped in cotton wool. Ryan, Doris, McCloskey, Ringrose and Lowe are the other five likely starters. Lowe definitely needs the gametime.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,378 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Boyle needs the game time. The Bayonne match was his first in six weeks due to injury. Beyond that, Paddy McCarthy usurped him for province and for country. We need him scrummaging as much as possible before the France game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Agreed tbh. Also think his kick-chase is a big weakness towards playing 15 too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,996 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Boyle has had a few more games: v Conn, v Uls, v Leic, v Quinns

    Surprised hes picked. Fair enough also re: scrum

    Loughman v France? eek

    Post edited by ionadnapóca on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,339 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    that and the distinct possibikity of having to make 1-v-1 tackles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,996 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    I've posted here so you dont have to click on the bait


    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2026/01/23/conor-murray-i-started-reading-the-comments-on-social-media-big-mistake/

    Conor Murray
    Fri Jan 23 2026 - 12:48

    If there is any advice I’d impart to a young, professional athlete it is: do not read the comments section on social media.

    Ever.

    (This man must be given an honorary PhD in psychology. Amazing insight from Conor.)

    Since I don’t have skin in the game anymore, I decided to dabble in the kneejerk views of rugby supporters.

    I had to stop scrolling for my own sanity. What are people seeing that I am missing? Maybe they simply want to generate debate because there are not enough new names in the Ireland squad.

    (35 year old Bundee Aki? Whos legs are gone)*

    *I love Bundee. Great player for Ireland and has served Irish rugby brilliantly.


    It is, very much, an Irish trait.(Wow)

    “Oh, not the same players again” is the general gist. Of course they have been picked again. You have to rip the jersey off them. Nobody is standing still.

    Some of the stuff is triggering. You nearly want to respond but social media is no place for logical, respectful discourse.

    I keep seeing demands to overhaul the Ireland squad for the Six Nations. Bundee Aki must go. (Yes) James Lowe must go.(No) Sam Prendergast needs to be dropped. (No) No, wait, Jack Crowley needs to be dropped.(No)

    It is never-ending.

    I can state with certainty that the Ireland squad depth will be severely tested, in every position, between now and March 14th.(So can the dog in the street)

    In some areas the pressure is already immense. I’d say the Ireland scrum coach, John Fogarty, will be in his element when the squad lands in Portugal next week. Injuries to Andrew Porter and Paddy McCarthy, with doubts around Tadhg Furlong, mean that Fogs has a serious task on his hands but, knowing him, he will embrace the opportunity to find out about his other props. (This should have happened in Nov)

    Both looseheads, Porter and McCarthy, will miss France in Paris on Thursday week. They are unlikely to feature against Italy the week after or Twickenham the week after that, as the Six Nations abandon one of their gap weeks (presumably to appease the people screaming bloody murder in the comments over care for the players). (Jack Boyle played 0 mins in Nov, Tom O'Toole played 0 mins in Nov)

    Scrummaging inside the Stade de France tends to stress test the IRFU system when it is at full strength. The lessons learned by Porter and McCarthy from the Springboks scrum-clinic in November cannot be put to much use in Paris.(Porter only learning lessons now?)

    But I expect a similarly hectic, close-to-insanity levels of brutality from Uini Atonio and friends that Ireland received from the Boks.

    Jack Boyle will get the opportunity he has wanted for a few years. Boyle might be the third choice loosehead at Leinster but he struck me as a confident fella when he initially came into Ireland camp. Whoever makes the bench from Tom O’Toole, Michael Milne and Jeremy Lockman will not take a backward step. (Lockman??)

    Scrolling down a long list of injuries, Irish fans demanding change should take a breath. Now is not the moment to break up an established squad. (Those dogs on the street also know this. They also know Wardx2 and maybe Kenny should be given a shot over the course of this 6N)


    Andy Farrell has already mapped out his starting XV and bench for these first three games. Change will come, and not by choice, as some lads will be broken, forcing others to fill the gap.
    (It shouldn't be just on injury. Its Wales and Italy FFS)

    The condensed schedule demands a reliable selection policy. (see above)

    There is some scope for fresh blood. If Tadhg Beirne starts on the blindside flank, there is an opportunity to spring Edwin Edogbo from the bench when the second-half in Paris takes its toll on the other locks. (It can only be Edogbo. Dogs. On. Street)

    Edogbo is returning from three achilles tears since 2021, so Munster have been careful with him. But in recent weeks, especially against Castres, he was uncontainable.(3 or 2 achilles tears? )

    I remember Edogbo as a studious character around Munster training who sponged everything up when promoted from the academy. What is so exciting about Edogbo is his size. Even Paul O’Connell had to put on the bulk and muscle that he already possessed.

    I wonder if he realises how devastating a player he can become? Maybe he is trying to find his stride after a few setbacks. I’d be wary of building a fella up but in terms of raw talent and physical attributes, it is all there. And the (little) brother Seán Edogbo is not too far behind, making his Munster debut against the Dragons on Friday night.


    Despite the comments section calling for revolution, I find it comforting to face into a savage Six Nations fixture list with plenty of familiar faces.
    (Of course. They are your mates)

    No team wants to turn to the next generation in Paris or Twickenham. Nathan Doak has played his way onto the panel, he deserves a cap this season, but Jamison Gibson-Park and Craig Casey are the scrumhalves Ireland need right now.(I agree on Casey v France. But Doak needs to play v Italy and then maybe its more of a debate for Twickenham)

    The same goes for Garry Ringrose, Bundee Aki and Stu McCloskey in midfield, although I expect Tom Farrell might feature before round three is done. (Aki doesnt need to play any active part. IF StuMcC is injured AND Osborne cant play - well fair enough. Come on in Bundee)

    Outhalf is, genuinely, a tricky situation for the Ireland coaches with Harry Byrne playing himself into contention. Still, I’d be surprised if Sam Prendergast and Jack Crowley are not sharing minutes. (Its not. Prendergast starts, Crowley on bench v France. Byrne starts, Crowley on Bench. v Italy)

    Anything could and probably will happen. Ciarán Frawley might end up at 10, off the bench, when it really matters. (No he wont)

    All we know for certain is to expect the worst, and react accordingly. (Thanks. Thats why Crowley will be on the bench)

    A little bit of reliability goes a long way in this tournament. That is why Hugo Keenan should return at fullback despite playing no rugby since the Lions tour. If not, Jacob Stockdale will rise to handle the constant aerial activity that this edition of the Six Nations looks certain to serve up.(Tend to agree on Keenan. Stockdale is not up to the standard in the air at all. Or in defence. And is not a Test standard FB)

    Stockdale, Rob Baloucoune or Jamie Osbourne are close to playing themselves into the back field. Lowe and Tommy O’Brien will disagree, strongly, but it is a debate worth having, and I know that Ireland’s attack coach Andrew Goodman will provide an evidence-based view to either support or attempt to change Farrell’s mind. (Osborne hasnt played since start of Nov)

    The commentators demanding change appear to be unaware that the Ireland coaches are having these conversations all the time. That is why Doak, Baloucoune and Edogbo were called up. On merit. The environment Farrell has created is designed to either force him to make change or bring the best out of the men he has consistently relied upon.

    Irish rugby will never operate like France. Farrell will never be able to swing the axe like Fabien Galthié did this week when he dropped Damian Penaud, Gaël Fickou and Grégory Alldritt, to remove 215 caps from camp in Marcoussis.

    It makes sense to Galthié because he can pick and choose from 14 clubs. Ireland have four provinces. The French have a ridiculous array of wingers, centres and athletic flankers but imagine the comments, from rational members of the public, if Farrell excluded Keenan, Ringrose and Doris? (I actually didnt realise Ireland ONLY had 4 provinces! Unbelievable amount of knowledge on display here from Conor and his thought provoking questions!)

    No, that is not how Ireland do business. Tough fortnight ahead, but has it ever been any other way? (Irish rugby lads like to add a question when they are talking)

    Conor Murray was a great player for Ireland. When you listen to him, read the excerpts from his book and read the drivel above Its hard to believe he receives money for this stuff.

    What he says is mostly just propaganda, he's only just retired, and most definitely still has "skin in the game". They are all his friends of course.

    I know sportsmen arent the most educated of people, but you would expect at least some actual insights (even a little) on Ireland, or the game in general, would be achievable. My 9 year old knows everything he's written about here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Good post @ionadnapóca

    He hasn’t exactly said a whole pile there or anything particularly insightful.

    Tho on this point:

    “Oh, not the same players again” is the general gist. Of course they have been picked again. You have to rip the jersey off them. Nobody is standing still.

    James Lowe just looks like he's standing still. 😉



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,996 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Poor 'old' Lowe! Im standing up for him all the same.

    He always plays well v France. And until Osborne is back fit Ireland will rely heavily on Lowe for his left foot. Form is a big concern all the same.

    Zac Ward should have started at 11 v Italy. But he wont be now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 43,004 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    That became painful to read after about ten lines.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭typhoony


    I was looking at the RWC tables and potential matches/draws in the last 16 and teams from the other side of the draw are mixed into matches on our side of the draw. I thought both sides of the draw were completely seperate until the final



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