Enterprise replacement and Connolly station based trains generally.

PlatformNine · 17-11-2024 08:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122847422#Comment_122847422

In that case, I just hope IE is on track to select a winner by the end of the year!

A1ACo · 20-12-2024 04:44PM

In anticipation of any announcement… and above discussions including under the 'Enterprise Refurb..' thread is there any preference on this forum just for very idle Christmas speculation, for the Enterprise new train's end cars nose design?

I'll throw in a yes overly long (!) list of obscure rail stock and design examples below for fun - and as a Christmas ID challenge!

This is also bearing in mind (a little bit) that 'higher speed' service - Higher-speed rail - Wikipedia lines such as for the Enterprise service, generally seem to inform the extent of 'streamlining' of design, as does loco' vs. MU/ semi-fixed MU choice.

So will the next Enterprise (Locos/ MU/ or mix) car nose ends design (i've made up descriptions) be:

Snub-nose - e.g. IE's Class 201 & Euro's SNCB Class 18/ Taurus/ Asiarunner & DSB EG Class/ Euro's Traxx P160/AC3/F140 MS3

Streamlined snub nose - e.g. I.E.'s Hyundai Rotem 22000 Class/ UR's HRCS2/ MR's KTM Class 91

Short profiled wedge - e.g. UK's Alstom Class 180 & JR's J-Trec AE Skyliner

Long flat wedge - e.g. IE's CAF Mk.4 & FIAT Alstom FS's Class ETR 460 & KRs EMD Class 7000

Short, or long bullet nose - e.g. JR's Hitachi 885 Series & KR's Class 130000 SRT, Siemens ICE TD

Long bullet/tapered wedge - e.g. UR's Afrosiyab/730 Class & ONCF's Al Boraque & CR200J & KR's KTX-EUM/UTY-EMU250 Class 150000/ 16000

Other misc nose design e.g.s - ABB Class MF/IC3/IR4 (EMU & DMU set sometimes run together like JP's Ki Ha 201 series - maybe something that could be done in Irish Rail service in the future?) /Class 494.1 TRD

& LG's ER20 CF & Skoda 109E & Siemen's Vectron Dual Mode & KR's ITX - Saemaeul & Brazil Supervia Serie 2005 & Skoda 109ev.

Also J-Trec have some cool and/ or odd designs - Series E657/ E259/E571/E5000(!)/ E7.

Personally, I like most of the above 'wedge' nose designs - and with bullet designs maybe a little overdone now in the UK at least (?) with all the Hitachi's units now about…

PlatformNine · 22-12-2024 05:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122977401#Comment_122977401

Having looked around a bit to see what is available, I am have been really interested in the CAF Civity, more specifically the Class 397 and its tri-mode cousin Class 897. Generally I think its what the Enterprise needs: 200km/h capable, battery+diesel+OHLE power, same car length as 22Ks. The main thing that could be a problem is they haven't produced any in a gauge other than standard. However CAF being spanish I would hope they are able to produce broad gauge units.

In terms of looks I like its front, especially compared to some other similar designs like the 395s or 800s, I think the 397 just looks a bit more sleek. However what really like about its design, and maybe its just me, but I think the Enteprise colours would look really nice on the 397/897s.

A1ACo · 06-01-2025 11:35AM

Maybe Stadler could do a job-lot deal for new 755/756 Tri—modes for the Enterprise, and heavy refurbs (or Trade-ins?!) for the 201s nationally, similar to their RENFE Class 333 via their Stadler Valencia plant… Just a new year thought!

Stadler Rail Valencia SAU - Wikipedia

PlatformNine · 06-01-2025 05:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123024872#Comment_123024872

The FLIRTs are another option I have been keeping my eye on, as like the Civity, it seems to match the tender and AISRR reccomendations for the fleet fairly well. I don't know if we would recieve 755/756s as I think they are FLIRT 160s which are only meant to be 160 km/h possible, and the 756s are supposedly even slower. However with the attention Stadler has been getting for their bi-mode and tri-mode sets, I could see IE wanting to work with Stadler to produce a FLIRT 200 bi-mode/tri-mode set based off of the Class 755/756s.

As for the 201s, I am not sure what IE plans. I would be surprised if IE plans to get a >50 year life span out of them like the 071s. What I think they might do is keep the 201s running smoothly until the Mk4s need a refurb, at which point instead of a refurb they order more Enterprise sets to replace the Mk4s and more 071 replacements (if I had to guess right now Class 93 or 99).

That is me assuming the Mk4s will need a refurd in around 10 years, but if they need them sooner than they might as well invest in the 201s and keep both around for a bit longer. Or if the Mk4s can last longer than that without a refurb then a heavy refurb on the 201s might be needed to keep them running anyways.

A1ACo · 22-01-2025 02:41PM

I'm guessing now that for outside considerations that the 'good news story' of the announcement won't happen until at least after early Feb…

I still wonder will it go to an Asian/ Asian-based company e.g. J-Trec (ex.Tokyu)/ Rotem or vice versa, or Hitachi etc., or… a European company such as Alstom, CAF, Siemens, Stadler etc.

Though the more recent months' railway media notes from Irish Rail I think, hinted that the diesel element was to have more primacy for now, and that the batteries were mostly only for in-station and arriving/ departing station operation (and that may impact on people's previous guesses/assumptions of train manufacturer and overall operation)?

Drifter100 · 16-02-2025 10:55PM

It appears 2 sets on Enterprise stock are hors de combat at this stage. One set is broken up with some carriages missing at Adelaide and another inside the depot. Has anyone any news on this, both sets seem in a sorry state of repair.

1 set of 2 X 3 coach NIR set and a Class 22000 5 coach appear to be the substitutions at the min

A1ACo · 22-02-2025 01:05AM

Maybe it has something to do with below, mentioned under message 448 of the 'Enterprise Refurbishment comes closer' thread?

'Does this 'Refresh'(?) refurb tender (Refresh of Enterprise Train Fleet | BWL) have any relation to the replacement new train tender (Enterprise replacement and Connolly station based trains generally. - Page 2 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin') in terms of any delays?…or can we surmise that this refresh would have happened anyway?

RE the above tender which appears to close this Jan. 2025: '…This work package will focus on the refurbishment of 4No. generator vans and 28No. coaches (4 of which are Catering Cars).'

A few more details here Refresh of Enterp... | Translink | £115,000 | Stage N/A | Date N/A - apologies if I missed chat about this elsewhere?'

A1ACo · 22-02-2025 01:12AM

On another read of the links, above is for a pre-potential tender discussion and market interest investigation…

PlatformNine · 22-04-2025 10:35PM

Its a few weeks old now, but I only just found it, but a little update on the Enterprise fleet replacement from Darragh O'Brien:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2025-04-02/82/

Fleet procurement is well advanced and it sounds like we are reasonably close to the order being placed, so hopefully we are close to an announcement!

As of 3 weeks ago the final business case was being developed, which while I am not very familiar with the infrastructure guidelines, approval of the final business case I think is the last step before the order can be placed?

The most notable thing mentioned is that the sets will both arrive and enter service in 2029, which while I think arriving in (presumably early) 2029 would make sense if the order is only placed later this year, I would be skeptical of the units additionally being able to enter service the same year.

Round Cable · 18-08-2025 09:03AM

Tenders are being evaluated now for the new enterprise trains according to the Irish Times.

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2025/08/18/tenders-for-new-165m-dublin-belfast-hybrid-trains-being-evaluated-almost-two-years-after-issuing/

Citizen Six · 26-08-2025 08:52PM

I think the De Dietrichs are due to be retired in 2028. They aren't marked for ETCS retrofitting, similar to the 8100 Darts, while the MK4 sets are set to get the equipment.

dowlingm · 27-08-2025 04:02AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123757410#Comment_123757410

What is the milestone in 2028 - turning off CAWS Connolly-side?

Presumably depending on condition IE could run their 201s and DDs Heuston-side after that, on express services. Of course I have been banging that drum (swap 201-DD for 22s on Enterprise) for a long time before ECTS ever came along.

A1ACo · 27-08-2025 11:18AM

Interesting idea… but from Heuston to where on that route, Galway, Westport, Ballina etc. or one set per a route?

And maybe include a set as a Belfast-Derry express? This latter idea could be as a 'shuttle' of sorts added to the Belfast-Dublin route, as part of a greater connectivity to the northwest/ Donegal direction…

This is without looking into that idea at all!

Though some alteration may have to be made re the Enterprise 50/50 operational/costs in any case, but if a set was to be used to Derry/Londonderry it could be tied into 'island of Ireland' type ideas, similar to the government's idea of contributing to the NI's A5 roadway to help connectivity to the northwest/ Donegal.

PlatformNine · 27-08-2025 11:57AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123757410#Comment_123757410

The current plan is for the new sets to enter service in 2029, and to be honest I think it would be difficult to beat that unless the manufacturing time for the new sets is <2 years and they are able to arrive by mid-2027.

Citizen Six · 27-08-2025 08:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123757978#Comment_123757978

I don't think they'll be turning off CAWS that soon. They just don't want the expense of putting ETCS into units with short life expectancy left.

Units will be running both until CAWS is finally switched off. But there's a lot of units to upgrade, and a lot of drivers to train up on ETCS.

dowlingm · 01-09-2025 05:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123758618#Comment_123758618

The difference as I see it between NIR and IE is that IE uses 201s for multiple purposes. Retaining the NIR DD sets keeps NIR requiring trained drivers and maintainers. If IE could only run two sets then that mainly limits them to stuff like GAA specials or other charters.

If they could acquire NIRs for reasonable cost then that gives them the ability to operate four trainsets and thus have 1-2 cycling through maintenance while at least two are road available, and also acquire any of NIR’s class-specific spares and tools. A spare 201 at Kildare or Portarlington would be able to cover issues on a Mark 4, a freight or a DD set.

An express peak Limerick service would be my first thought for scheduled runs, since it would play to the strengths of a locohaul trainset which could be qualified to 100mph.

that said, by 2028, 2029, 2030 the clock is ticking further and further, and even four trainsets can only be stretched so far, and the 201s aren’t immortal either.

A1ACo · 02-09-2025 04:29PM

Express services between the Irish Rail network cities, presumably off- and pre-peak(?), using future ex-Enterprise stock and 201 locos would seem like a good use of such loco-hauled trainsets (on the network's longest journeys and still as more 'flagship' inter-city type services).

In terms of any continued use of the DD sets in the north part of the island, re my post above, I meant to mention that if a new rail-link vis a vis the AIRR to Letterkenny was ever built… that that would also be 'nice' as an express to Belfast via a Derry/Londonderry stop… and to tie-into whatever Belfast-Dublin future Enterprise service; as NW island/ all-island link.

I did have a quick look after at the existing Derry/Belfast rail route schedule, and it included about 13 stops and over two hours journey time I think, including a few stops within Belfast city area. I also came across a couple of horror stories on Reddit giving out about the intermediate stops on that line.

goingnowhere · 02-09-2025 08:03PM

DD’s are considered life expired so will be scrapped fairly quickly, there is a scramble ongoing to ensure they can keep going till 2029

They are a completely custom design, only the bodyshell has some similarity with TGV practice.

They struggle to keep 3 sets in service, some days they manage only 2.

The sets are only approved for Dublin Belfast (via Antrim as well), they have been as far as Limerick Junction without the step boards but are certified to 90mph only.

A1ACo · 03-09-2025 02:16PM

Hitting 30 years of age in the next couple of years would give the DDs about the same service life as IE's older previous Mk.3 coaching stock. So I wonder then could they still have some life left in them after the 'Refresh' for any services that are a lot less demanding? Such as noting the 'Belmond' train and for example that a rake of BR Mk.3 stock and 3 HST locos went off to Mexico of all places!

(Notwithstanding the need for a gauge change, maybe the full sets including the Mk.3 generator vans and a few EMD 201's would be of use in Mexico (or somewhere else) after some more general refurbishment, and noting that that country also uses a few different EMD locos already....).

As a small aside, I read last week that one or two of the UK Class 67 EMD locos similar to and coming after IE's 201's have been scrapped already, but they operated/struggled within a country with a lot more rail electrification than in Ireland.

Overall though, wasn't it usually the 201 locos and the HEP, and later replacement mk.3 generators that were the most limiting factor? Otherwise they seem to be a little bit smaller than the Cork-Dublin CAF Mk.4s in all dimensions in terms of where they could go, but maybe there is another factor involved regards its 'dynamic envelope'/ side-wards rocking etc. and/ or combination to need to be pulled by 201's?

Noted though, the 90mph limitation re the faster Cork line and other lines if speeds improved.

A1ACo · 03-09-2025 02:41PM

Back to idle speculation re Enterprise replacement,.. I think it has been mentioned online here that 2-3 new train bids were submitted, that 2 were short-listed, and that IE were disappointed with the level of response.

Seeing as the decision is now stated to be made before the end of the year, I'm guessing the three bidders were CAF, Stadler and Hitachi?!

This is noting that in the UK, both LNER and Grand Central have made relatively small (for the UK) orders for Tri-mode multiple unit trains with CAF and Hitachi respectively, and with Stadler Tri-modes (FLIRTs) Class 756 as mentioned by another poster above, in service for Transport for Wales but at a relatively low top speed. There are are also FLIRT 200 (160-200kph) in Stadler's range but I can't see if tri-modes are available.

But would Hitachi for example, tie-in with J-TREC/Tokyu car to have some (bogies) compatibility with the DARTs and Class 22000, or would a CAF offering have any compatibilities with their Mk.4 and Class 29000s here?

I can't find any Tri-mode products for Hyundai-Rotem, and perhaps there is a future Alstom Tri-mode out there possibly compatible with their incoming DARTs (90000 Class?). Maybe something left-of-field from Talgo or China?!

If it is a Hitachi or CAF etc. product hopefully it'll be a little wider/ more standard than the narrower, UK-specific models.

goingnowhere · 04-09-2025 10:23AM

Its not Siemens as they have declared they are no longer in the business of diesel powered passenger trains anymore, hybrid or otherwise.

The small order size isn't attractive

The bespoke nature of the train does point to Stadler. Hitachi has a big plant in the UK and a slim order book and they have trialled a UK IET with a battery and it was impressive all it needs is 1500V DC and it meets almost all the requirements. Proven tech to UK spec which is easier sell on a risk basis.

One the interesting requirements is level boarding, that can't be done with a big engine under the floor and putting a engine above the floor as Stadler have done eats into seating

Jamie2k9 · 04-09-2025 08:47PM

NTA sidelined for a project like this equals progress.

The price of €650m is quiet high, at 11.6m per car for 56 coaches (8x7 car). Does include a maintenance contract but it's still high complared to previous orders by IE/NIR.

Hitachi UK coaches are typicall 5-7m per car with Lumo, Grand Central etc.

A1ACo · 05-09-2025 05:18PM

The recent Grand Central order in the UK for tri-mode versions of the Hitachi Class 800 was for 9 x 5 car trains (45 cars) for £300m which is small for a UK order, and noting that GC seems to only run 5x car trains.

I wonder does Irish Rail have a strong preference for Steel - rather than Aluminium carriages that seems to be used for most Hitachi AT300 (A-train) models?

Also, are the recent Alstom DART order any indication that 'short and fat' trains are preferred?! As the three types of inter-city carriages IE has now are about 23m long, but the Class 800s are 26m long (and narrower than IE carriages), and the tender was for a train length of no more than 200m (maybe ruling out say 8 x 26m cars = 208m).

The earlier UK AT300 type, the Japanese built UK Class 395 is short and fat as is the Stadler Class 756, both 20-22m long compared to the Class 800. The width may be important regards the above stated tender requirement for level boarding, and what for example appears to be the high and well set-back, passenger door step-boards of the Class 800 and similar narrower width trains.

I hope below give an idea of what I'm talking about!

Ascending carriage widths of Enterprise contenders with existing IE/ NIR similar speed and intercity units:

BR Rail & NIR

Hitachi Class 800 – 2.7m (8ft10’) Wide & 25.8-26m Long (5-car & 9-Car sets)

CAF Class 897 – 2.71m Wide? & 23.3-24.0m Long? (re Class 195?) (10-Car sets)

Stadler Class 756 – 2.72m & 2.82 Wide & 20-21.6m Long (3-car & 4-Car sets)

CAF 3000 & 4000 – 2.73/.75m Wide? & 22.9-23.7m Long? (re Class 332/3?) (3 / 3 & 6-car sets)

Hitachi Class 395 – 2.810m (9ft2.6’) Wide & 20-20.8m Long (6-Car sets)

Irish Rail:

De Deitrich – 2.814m Wide (9ft2.8’) & 23.4m Long

22000 Rotem - 2.84m Wide & 22.4-23.3m Long (3,4, 5 & 6-car sets)

CAF Mk4 – 2.85m Wide & 23.6m Long

90000 Alstom - 2.9+m Wide? & 15m Long? (5 & 10-car sets)

goingnowhere · 07-09-2025 12:11PM

Irish Rail spec is now for stainless steel or aluminium bodyshells.

Earlier fleets had massive issues with corrosion so this is a long term strategy to avoid those issues. The original DART fleet was mild steel and has rust all over, its German and Dutch cousins had stainless steel bodies…

New DART fleet is aluminium

CreadanLady · 18-09-2025 01:29PM

Jame's Drumm's revenge.

Are we really going to see a return of the modern incarnation of the Drumm Battery Train?

The original was fairly successful back in it's day and ran for most of the 30s and 40s.

A1ACo · 05-10-2025 05:33PM

Loosely related to all of the above and for a slow Sunday; here is a photo of a preserved 1960s EMU…Stainless Steel.., Budd 'Metroliner' for the US Northeast corridor (adjacent to the sea in parts) that ran on the Inter-City services between New York and Washington. It would have travelled at a similar maximum speed as the proposed new IR/ NIR Enterprise trains too, so some similarities there.

Note how untarnished its Stainless Steel exterior is vis a vis above comments and the Mild Steel of some Irish Rail stock.

Same point regards the longevity of Stainless Steel car bodies made here regards a preserved 1950s Tokyu Car, Series 5200:

Not that unpainted Stainless Steel 'Silverliners' are the fashion anymore, and Aluminium car bodies are sometimes used even by companies that appear to otherwise specialise in Stainless Steel such as Tokyu car/J-Trec (e.g. their Aluminium, Keisei Type AE 'Skyliner'). Alstom as above is using Aluminium for the new DARTs and Hitachi same for most of its A-Trains (including UK 800 Class and 395s, though outlier of the earlier A-Train 883 Series in Stainless Steel Aluminium?).

I'm not sure if potential new Enterprise trainsets suppliers such as CAF, Stadler and Alstom etc. lean towards Mild Steel, Stainless Steel or Aluminium for their equivalent products in the 'Enterprise category' e.g. the incoming CAF 897 but the 331 of the same Civity family seems to be Aluminium, and the Stadler 755 Bi-mode is also Aluminium. Aluminium seems to be a preference?

That said, the previous Irish Rail Mild Steel train products problems seem to occur only after a number of years of hard service? and mostly cosmetic…?

goingnowhere · 06-10-2025 12:02PM

Irish Rail require either stainless or aluminium

2600, 2800, 85/86, 22K, Mk4 fleets are stainless, new DART fleet is aluminium

Citizen Six · 06-10-2025 05:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123880292#Comment_123880292

Not only cosmetic. I've been in the wagon shop at Inchicore and was shown the damage that was found underneath the superficial rust spots on the 8100s. Required detailed and time consuming repairs.

A1ACo · 06-10-2025 06:44PM

The last small few 8100s I've seen in the last couple of weeks seemed to be in pretty good nick, but I saw this rust patch today above the door on 8302 and thought it was topical! A few dents here and there as well!

Enterprise replacement and Connolly station based trains generally.

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