Enterprise replacement and Connolly station based trains generally.

goingnowhere

Thats a problem, rust gets in around the door rail and distorts it and bingo the doors get stuck and won't work correctly

The rust problem was played down by Irish Rail but was lot worse than initial reports.

So the lesson here is don't use mild steel. Aluminium is almost certainly what the new Enterprise fleet is built out of. Weight alone will require this

A1ACo

Back to the main thread, I'd totally forgotten when I mentioned previously, that there may be attractiveness in having some compatibility between existing IR stock, and any new Enterprise order e.g. …

'…would a CAF offering have any compatibilities with their Mk.4 and Class 29000s here?' …

that of course NIRs trains (3000 and 4000 Classes) are all CAFs as well — Doh!.

I had a quick look at the UK forums and its seems that maybe no construction has started on the UK's Tri-mode CAF, Class 897, and no publicly available detail on their engines, types and arrangements, and different mode's operating speeds.

That been said, the single artist's impression floating around of the 897 indicates half, or all of the front/end carriages are a DVT or similar (like IE's Generator car Mk4 DVT) and maybe would contain batteries, or engines, traction... - so maybe getting over some of the difficulties of mounting some equipment under the carriages and knock-on to level boarding?

The location of the builds - later support, nearest similar operators, and factory availability 'may' also have some impact (besides any compatibility and price etc.); such as build in EU or outside EU? Or does location matter much.

Today is the budget anyway, so should we hold our breath for an impending follow-on announcement soon?!

goingnowhere

Bids are being reviewed currently.

The most likely is an adapted version of the UK IET, they did a battery trial in 2024 which exceeded expectations. The CAF 987 is also a possibility but Hitachi has a working model. Both need 1500V

Both would be built in the UK which may be helpful to keep the UK Government happy and provide some commonality with fleets in the UK which would keep support and parts costs down. But its an EU tender so any qualifying party globally can build the fleet.

Unclear if Alstom or Stadler are in the running.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886257#Comment_123886257

Doesn't the tender require level boarding?

I ask because I think it would be funny if they ordered a modified IET, I don't believe any of the current or orders for UK operators have level boarding. I just think it would be a bit funny that after hundreds of units ordered(totalling to over 1700 cars!) if the first IET with level boarding was for IR/NIR.

A1ACo

Interestingly, with both the UK's Hitachi IET/ Class 800s (Hitachi AT300, A-Train family), and the UK's CAF 'Civity UK Platform' Class 897 - the builds appear to a lesser or greater extent, to be split between the origin nation factories (Japan and Spain respectively) and the UK, with the UK receiving the car bodies and assembling them.

But in some cases the trains appear to be totally built in the origin country e.g. CAF Class 397 EMU entirely built in Spain (as it also seems for the CAF UK Mark 5 and 5a carriages), and Hitachi's Italy and Japan plants also seemingly built the IET 802s.

The predecessor to the UK's IET/800s Class was the UK's Class 395, which was built in Japan.

Politics may also come into play in the background to some degree, but currency exchange costs might also…! So maybe Irish Rail's half of the sets would be ordered in Euros and built in the Euro factories, and NIRs paid in Stg.£ and assembled in Wales?…

Saying that, the EU has a newish trade deal with Japan, so Japan Inc. maybe happier to receive a direct Euro payment and to build an EU train order in Japan…?

Regards the level boarding question, I came across a reference in one of the UK forums that in the tender for the Tri-mode trains for LNER that the tender had mentioned exploring the possibility of level boarding. But the poster opined that this was not possible using any of the existing CAF UK Civity models (noting that CAF won the order for the LNER tri-mode trains, with the Class 897s).

For Hitachi, it looks like its domestic Japanese AT300, A-Train, 'Limited Express' units are a bit more slab-sided than their UK IET/800s, but still are not with level boarding it appears, even the exports ones for Korea's Korail Class 200000.

Again as mentioned before, by dint of being shorter in carriage length and wider, the UK's first Hitachi units, the Class 395 appears to have their boarding steps a little closer to the platform than the later Hitachi Class 800s.

goingnowhere

Level boarding was in the requirements, but if you have to have a diesel engine under the floor it wont work. You could do a dropped door at a few points to get around this.

You could do a Stadler style solution with an engine module carriage which you can remove in the future. But this eats into train length and thus seating

Its going to be interesting to see who wins, both the CAF and Hitachi factories in the UK order books are far from full so there will be an eagerness to get business in, but Stadler are king of custom builds and Alstom has a massive capacity (read Derby in the UK hardly busy either). Siemens are out of the diesel powered business apparently for passenger trains

A1ACo

…and then Newag/ Talgo/ CRRC enter the room for 25/1….! Place your Bets please!

But I do wonder how much the 'UK element' may factor into things (if they have at all, as we don't know who the shortlisted 2 companies are)!

RE Alstom as above, its seems there were a few musings across the water that Alstom UK did not get the recent DART order but that Alstom Poland did get it, with but with the 'older' X'Trapolis product line.

I'm assuming options for 'bespoke' and wider carriages, and very mature and world-wide use were large factors in the X'trapolis getting the DART order (including 2-3 similar and previous orders for other countries at the same time, including with broad gauge and 1,500 V DC (1.5 kV DC) elements used e.g. in Australia and South America).

Jamie2k9

I think part of Alstom UK losing the order was because the UK Government decided not to provide financial support to secure the jobs in Derby.

dowlingm

was Derby even owned by Alstom when the tender was issued? They bought the works from Bombardier in January 2021. The contract was signed in December but I can’t easily figure when bids were made.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123888264#Comment_123888264

Not sure about Europe, but it's definitely not the case that Siemens is out of the diesel powered passenger business - over in the USA they've got an entire product line of diesel, electric and dual mode locomotives called the Siemens Charger.

Siemens Charger - Wikipedia

For some customers, e.g. Amtrak, Brightline etc, they're supplying them with matching carriages in train sets, but for others, e.g. the New York area suburban railways, the agency will run Chargers with existing carriages. Siemens might not offer DMUs, but I would not rule out a locomotive or trainset offer.

goingnowhere

Siemens are out of the diesel business, no new products. They are heavily pushing hydrogen and battery tech

A1ACo

If a generally less expected 'Left of Field' option of a locomotive, or power car(s) Multiple Unit train type was ordered, I'm guessing that it would be a Talgo 230 type - as recently ordered in numbers by both Germany (as ICE L) and Denmark (DSB).

But this would have to be mixed with the Spanish RENFE Class 730 Hybrid type train (altered from previous dual electric Talgo 250/ RENFE Class 130 trains but adding diesel power cars) to make the IE/ NIR requested Tri-mode train.

Regards Siemens, on the first look it appears that the recent DSB order of Siemens Vectron electric locomotives power the DSB Talgo 230s, but for Germany DB ironically its the Talgo electric or diesel locomotives are used for its Talgo 230/ ICE Ls.

The blurb for these Talgo 230 says that due to their bogie arrangement shared between carriages (a bit like Jacob bogie but that is to incorporate the Talgo natural-tilting characteristic), that the carriages are a bit shorter than usual to avoid excessive weight on the bogies/ tracks, and that this allows a wider carriage for more interior comfort.

It is also stated that they can have level boarding in parts...

I did see one comment however that the ride comfort on the RENFE Class 730s was not great, and indictive of the Jacobs style bogie..? But in saying that, they are still in use, DSB and DB are getting them in large numbers, and that that type of shared bogie are now going to be familiar to Irish Rail with the new Alstom DARTs on the Jacobs bogie style non-conventional arrangement.

(* A bit of a correction maybe, I don't know if ALL Talgo Trains tilt re: if with natural tilt/pendular in their shared bogie characteristic).

A Talgo 230 arrangement with power cars (with batteries, and electric motors, and diesel for hotel power…!?) may allow for new locomotives, and continued use of existing (and upgraded?) 201 locomotives.

Some of this locomotive and power cars arrangements approach was discussed previously a while back (much by me!) but the general consensus was that Irish Rail would probably continue with the Class 22000 etc. Multiple Unit approach.

Round Cable

Stadler were set to be awarded the contract for the new Enterprise trains, but runner up CAF are seeking a judicial review in the High Court.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/spanish-firm-in-legal-challenge-over-awarding-of-650m-fleet-contract/a1117458650.html

A1ACo

When I saw this pop up on my phone a few minutes ago I was like 'WHat!' .. A funny way to find out,.. on a Sunday morning of a bank holiday and that its already gone as far as JR of the decision.

But I suppose it wouldn't be the first time in the world these kind of big awards have been disputed, hopefully it won't delay things too long but… if it ended up being re-tendered or similar delay at the end of the day I would not be too surprised.

OisinCooke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123938624#Comment_123938624

How can this possibly be held up…? CAF were sour that they didn’t win and are taking IÉ and NIR to court over it…??? Surely there’s no way this can actually proceed? I always imagined that Stadler would win the contract, bi-mode and tri-mode EMUs are totally their forte, this is exactly the type of contract that they would excel at and have shown to do just that with other similar train fleets the world over. Very odd stuff…

goingnowhere

Tender was issued under EU procedures which includes a standstill period after award where a legal challenge can be taken.

The tender docs even include the contact details of the High Court.

This is normal almost routine, most known recent case Alstom sued when Siemens won the Eurostar order a decade back.

Citizen Six

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2025/11/05/challenge-to-650m-enterprise-train-contract-could-mean-loss-of-165m-in-funding-court-told/

A High Court challenge to the awarding of a €650 million contract to replace the Dublin-Belfast Enterprise train service rolling stock could mean the loss of up to €165 million of European Union funding towards the project, a judge was told on Wednesday. 

Mr Justice Mark Sanfey admitted an application by Iarnród Éireann-Irish Rail and Northern Ireland Railways Co Ltd, who operate the service, to have a stay on the awarding of the contract lifted to the fast track Commercial Court. 

Unsuccessful tenderer, global transportation systems company Construcciones Y Auxiliar De Ferrocarriles (CAF) SA, had brought the challenge last month under EU procurement regulations which mean an automatic stay is placed on the awarding of the contract unless a court decides to lift it. 

It is alleged in the Irish Rail’s proceedings that CAF has been added to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights’ blacklist of firms conducting business in occupied Palestinian territories. 

The contract was awarded to Switzerland-headquartered Stadler Bussnang AG on September 18th.

Peter Smyth, chief mechanical engineer with Irish Rail, said in an affidavit seeking entry of the case to the commercial list, that despite an overall and refurbishment in 2015 of the current locomotives and carriages on the northern line, the fleet is reaching the end of its 30-year design life at the end of 2027. It will then require significant work and investment to ensure continued safe service beyond this date. 

Mr Smyth said 3.3 million people live within a 40-mile commute distance from the Dublin-Belfast line and fast and reliable services are vital to the economic life of the island.

The planned investment in the service will see an hourly service between the two cities, doubling the current eight services per day to 16. 

It will also mean the replacement of “non-Enterprise sets” of rolling stock which do not have the same feel and kit-out as Enterprise trains. Passengers are also unhappy with them and they are more expensive to operate and inefficient. 

The new service will create a capacity to provide four million passenger journeys a year by 2030 with 2.4 million passenger journeys expected to be taken by 2033. It will also achieve higher speeds than the current service which has a maximum speed of 90mph. 

Mr Smyth said funding for the project is coming from the Irish Government, the Northern Ireland department of infrastructure and EU funding programmes for the six counties. 

Up to €165 million is to come from the EU programmes but this is subject to a condition that there is a December 31st, 2029 end date for the project “after which time any costs not defrayed will be deemed to be ineligible for reimbursement”.

Mr Smyth said it emerged during the tendering competition that none of the bidders will be able to deliver all of the planned eight Enterprise Sets in service by that deadline date but the EU has been asked to approve funding based on the successful tenderer having four sets ready by then.

If the EU funding is not ultimately achieved, it would be for the sponsoring departments here and in Northern Ireland to make up the shortfall, he said. 

In her application on Wednesday on behalf of the defendants to have the case admitted to the Commercial Court, Catherine Donnelly SC said there was an urgency to the case because of the possible loss of EU funding and the timeline required by the successful tenderer to fulfil the contract. 

Jonathan Newman SC, for CAF, said he was consenting to the case being admitted to the list but was surprised by the case being made about the loss of EU funding when this was at odds with the scoring system in the tender process which gave a 5 per cent mark for on time delivery and where the successful tenderer says he cannot do it until 2031. 

He said his client’s case was not confined to manifest errors in the marking of its tender but also the lack of clarity in the competition documents. 

Mr Justice Sanfey said it is possible the case could be heard very quickly and he could give directions for an expedited hearing. He adjourned it for two weeks.

The Mathematician

I'm not sure I would put too much weight on that report considering they didn't even get the current service level correct. If that is incorrect, how many of the other things are as well?

It is also true that it is more expensive to operate multiple units?

goingnowhere

The current DD sets are heavy on fuel. The joke on the Sligo line back in the day was a 29k used less fuel than the generator van alone on the old Mk2d sets. So you can imagine how must more fuel a 201, Mk3 gen and DD set uses.

CAF wasn't on the UN naughty list at the time of award, but are now…

PlatformNine

https://courts.ie/high-court-search?caseRecordId=H.JR.2025.0001548

It seems that there will be a decision by Feb next year. I know nothing about the commercial court, so I am not sure if that is a normal speed for decisions, or if it means anything for the case.

But eitherway, hopefully it will go in IÉ favour.

p_haugh

Suspension has been lifted by the courts it seems. IÉ argued that if the contract wasn't signed by the 30th November, they would lose the production slot in the Stadler factory which would mean that the four trains would miss being delivered before the 31st December 2029 funding deadline.

https://www2.courts.ie/viewer/pdf/9e636bf3-2bd7-4ffe-80f3-aa66212ad611/2025_IEHC_645.pdf/pdf#view=fitH

L1011

Is it only 4 units being bought?

edit: 8, 4 to be delivered by 31/12/2029

p_haugh

From what I am reading (not my area of expertise by any means mind you), it was determined neither party would be able to produce & deliver all 8 trains by the funding deadline, so the tender was negotiated to change the requirements to allow for an "initial delivery" of 4 trains by the deadline. It seems that the overall contract is still for 8 trains, however.

LXFlyer

They need 8 sets for an hourly service and to have maintenance cover.

The urgency for the four sets is so the EU funding can be drawn down.

A1ACo

As an aside, what I think is a little remarkable, is that after a fair bit of speculation here and on other threads, that once the winner of the tender was known, that there was no more speculation on the appearance and other specs' of the future Stadler's. I guess all of the excitement was in the anticipation!

Also, there does not seem anything from Stadler on-line that I can see on quick glance, heralding the order.

Picking up from message no.85, will Irish Rail go for more continental Euro' short and wide carriages, noting that the snip from the Stadler website below for the FLIRT size options seem to show wider (and shorter?) carriages…

…than what Wikipedia shows for the UK's Class 756/ Transport for Wales Tri-mode (i.e. Stadler, UK Class 756 – 2.72m & 2.82 Width, & 20-21.6m Long (3-car & 4-Car sets) with 121km/h speed. Might Irish Rail go for the short and wide approach similar to the new (also Jacob bogie approach) Alstom DARTs (and Germany and Danish inter-city's with their wide, new Talgo's)?

Also, as previously mentioned I think, would the engines on the new modes have any relationship to any potential, future Stadler tri-mode locomotives engines for Irish Rail, and/ or re-engine and converting of 201 Class to say, Bi-mode? Not that I've looked into engine sizes for this question so far…

Edit - the UK Stadler Bi-mode engine details, from Wiki' :

'…Class 755 units have three or four passenger vehicles, along with a separate ''Power Pack" vehicle near the centre of the unit that can be fitted with up to four Deutz 16-litre V8 diesel engines and generators. Class 755/4 units have four engines, while 755/3 units have two (mounted diagonally opposite each other).'

OisinCooke

A tad bit confused by some of the above messages… was the JR quashed and Stadler awarded…?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124036673#Comment_124036673

The challenge can continue, with monetary damages if CAF somehow win; but the contract has been awarded.

CAF did not want this, they either wanted the contract or to screw over Stadler, you decide.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124036673#Comment_124036673

The case is continuing, but the judge has allowed the contract with Stadler to be signed, after it was explained by IÉ/NIR that significant EU funding would cease to be available were four trains not delivered by December 2029 - Stadler had made it clear that the contract would have to be signed now to meet that deadline.

So effectively it means CAF are now looking for compensation.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124036400#Comment_124036400

Unless the sets turned out to be complete lemons I would bet whatever they pick will be used for IC and regional Expansion across the rest of the network.

I imagine there will be something up on Stadler's website soon enough, possibly with some concept images. My bet would still be on a FLIRT 200. While they would probably be technically a bit different, because of our loading gauge I think our sets will look quite similar to the 745/755/756s.

OisinCooke

@LXFlyer @L1011 thanks a million for the responses, that’s definitely good news that Stadler has been awarded, I think they were always going to be the right company for the job.

With regards to CAF and their damages as well, this is definitely better news than the contract being held up as at least the design and procurement can theoretically start immediately.

Out of interest, if CAF do end up winning, would the the compensation damages come out of IÉ’s pocket, the NTA’s or the State’s… or are all three the same pocket?