Enterprise replacement and Connolly station based trains generally.

goingnowhere

Thats a problem, rust gets in around the door rail and distorts it and bingo the doors get stuck and won't work correctly

The rust problem was played down by Irish Rail but was lot worse than initial reports.

So the lesson here is don't use mild steel. Aluminium is almost certainly what the new Enterprise fleet is built out of. Weight alone will require this

A1ACo

Back to the main thread, I'd totally forgotten when I mentioned previously, that there may be attractiveness in having some compatibility between existing IR stock, and any new Enterprise order e.g. …

'…would a CAF offering have any compatibilities with their Mk.4 and Class 29000s here?' …

that of course NIRs trains (3000 and 4000 Classes) are all CAFs as well — Doh!.

I had a quick look at the UK forums and its seems that maybe no construction has started on the UK's Tri-mode CAF, Class 897, and no publicly available detail on their engines, types and arrangements, and different mode's operating speeds.

That been said, the single artist's impression floating around of the 897 indicates half, or all of the front/end carriages are a DVT or similar (like IE's Generator car Mk4 DVT) and maybe would contain batteries, or engines, traction... - so maybe getting over some of the difficulties of mounting some equipment under the carriages and knock-on to level boarding?

The location of the builds - later support, nearest similar operators, and factory availability 'may' also have some impact (besides any compatibility and price etc.); such as build in EU or outside EU? Or does location matter much.

Today is the budget anyway, so should we hold our breath for an impending follow-on announcement soon?!

goingnowhere

Bids are being reviewed currently.

The most likely is an adapted version of the UK IET, they did a battery trial in 2024 which exceeded expectations. The CAF 987 is also a possibility but Hitachi has a working model. Both need 1500V

Both would be built in the UK which may be helpful to keep the UK Government happy and provide some commonality with fleets in the UK which would keep support and parts costs down. But its an EU tender so any qualifying party globally can build the fleet.

Unclear if Alstom or Stadler are in the running.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886257#Comment_123886257

Doesn't the tender require level boarding?

I ask because I think it would be funny if they ordered a modified IET, I don't believe any of the current or orders for UK operators have level boarding. I just think it would be a bit funny that after hundreds of units ordered(totalling to over 1700 cars!) if the first IET with level boarding was for IR/NIR.

A1ACo

Interestingly, with both the UK's Hitachi IET/ Class 800s (Hitachi AT300, A-Train family), and the UK's CAF 'Civity UK Platform' Class 897 - the builds appear to a lesser or greater extent, to be split between the origin nation factories (Japan and Spain respectively) and the UK, with the UK receiving the car bodies and assembling them.

But in some cases the trains appear to be totally built in the origin country e.g. CAF Class 397 EMU entirely built in Spain (as it also seems for the CAF UK Mark 5 and 5a carriages), and Hitachi's Italy and Japan plants also seemingly built the IET 802s.

The predecessor to the UK's IET/800s Class was the UK's Class 395, which was built in Japan.

Politics may also come into play in the background to some degree, but currency exchange costs might also…! So maybe Irish Rail's half of the sets would be ordered in Euros and built in the Euro factories, and NIRs paid in Stg.£ and assembled in Wales?…

Saying that, the EU has a newish trade deal with Japan, so Japan Inc. maybe happier to receive a direct Euro payment and to build an EU train order in Japan…?

Regards the level boarding question, I came across a reference in one of the UK forums that in the tender for the Tri-mode trains for LNER that the tender had mentioned exploring the possibility of level boarding. But the poster opined that this was not possible using any of the existing CAF UK Civity models (noting that CAF won the order for the LNER tri-mode trains, with the Class 897s).

For Hitachi, it looks like its domestic Japanese AT300, A-Train, 'Limited Express' units are a bit more slab-sided than their UK IET/800s, but still are not with level boarding it appears, even the exports ones for Korea's Korail Class 200000.

Again as mentioned before, by dint of being shorter in carriage length and wider, the UK's first Hitachi units, the Class 395 appears to have their boarding steps a little closer to the platform than the later Hitachi Class 800s.

goingnowhere

Level boarding was in the requirements, but if you have to have a diesel engine under the floor it wont work. You could do a dropped door at a few points to get around this.

You could do a Stadler style solution with an engine module carriage which you can remove in the future. But this eats into train length and thus seating

Its going to be interesting to see who wins, both the CAF and Hitachi factories in the UK order books are far from full so there will be an eagerness to get business in, but Stadler are king of custom builds and Alstom has a massive capacity (read Derby in the UK hardly busy either). Siemens are out of the diesel powered business apparently for passenger trains

A1ACo

…and then Newag/ Talgo/ CRRC enter the room for 25/1….! Place your Bets please!

But I do wonder how much the 'UK element' may factor into things (if they have at all, as we don't know who the shortlisted 2 companies are)!

RE Alstom as above, its seems there were a few musings across the water that Alstom UK did not get the recent DART order but that Alstom Poland did get it, with but with the 'older' X'Trapolis product line.

I'm assuming options for 'bespoke' and wider carriages, and very mature and world-wide use were large factors in the X'trapolis getting the DART order (including 2-3 similar and previous orders for other countries at the same time, including with broad gauge and 1,500 V DC (1.5 kV DC) elements used e.g. in Australia and South America).

Jamie2k9

I think part of Alstom UK losing the order was because the UK Government decided not to provide financial support to secure the jobs in Derby.

dowlingm

was Derby even owned by Alstom when the tender was issued? They bought the works from Bombardier in January 2021. The contract was signed in December but I can’t easily figure when bids were made.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123888264#Comment_123888264

Not sure about Europe, but it's definitely not the case that Siemens is out of the diesel powered passenger business - over in the USA they've got an entire product line of diesel, electric and dual mode locomotives called the Siemens Charger.

Siemens Charger - Wikipedia

For some customers, e.g. Amtrak, Brightline etc, they're supplying them with matching carriages in train sets, but for others, e.g. the New York area suburban railways, the agency will run Chargers with existing carriages. Siemens might not offer DMUs, but I would not rule out a locomotive or trainset offer.

goingnowhere

Siemens are out of the diesel business, no new products. They are heavily pushing hydrogen and battery tech

A1ACo

If a generally less expected 'Left of Field' option of a locomotive, or power car(s) Multiple Unit train type was ordered, I'm guessing that it would be a Talgo 230 type - as recently ordered in numbers by both Germany (as ICE L) and Denmark (DSB).

But this would have to be mixed with the Spanish RENFE Class 730 Hybrid type train (altered from previous dual electric Talgo 250/ RENFE Class 130 trains but adding diesel power cars) to make the IE/ NIR requested Tri-mode train.

Regards Siemens, on the first look it appears that the recent DSB order of Siemens Vectron electric locomotives power the DSB Talgo 230s, but for Germany DB ironically its the Talgo electric or diesel locomotives are used for its Talgo 230/ ICE Ls.

The blurb for these Talgo 230 says that due to their bogie arrangement shared between carriages (a bit like Jacob bogie but that is to incorporate the Talgo natural-tilting characteristic), that the carriages are a bit shorter than usual to avoid excessive weight on the bogies/ tracks, and that this allows a wider carriage for more interior comfort.

It is also stated that they can have level boarding in parts...

I did see one comment however that the ride comfort on the RENFE Class 730s was not great, and indictive of the Jacobs style bogie..? But in saying that, they are still in use, DSB and DB are getting them in large numbers, and that that type of shared bogie are now going to be familiar to Irish Rail with the new Alstom DARTs on the Jacobs bogie style non-conventional arrangement.

(* A bit of a correction maybe, I don't know if ALL Talgo Trains tilt re: if with natural tilt/pendular in their shared bogie characteristic).

A Talgo 230 arrangement with power cars (with batteries, and electric motors, and diesel for hotel power…!?) may allow for new locomotives, and continued use of existing (and upgraded?) 201 locomotives.

Some of this locomotive and power cars arrangements approach was discussed previously a while back (much by me!) but the general consensus was that Irish Rail would probably continue with the Class 22000 etc. Multiple Unit approach.