Enterprise replacement and Connolly station based trains generally.

SeanW

I've read bit about planned replacements for the Enterprise trains that run from Connolly up to Belfast in other threads. I decided to start this thread to follow developments on this specifically, but also how this connects more broadly with train services based out of Connolly more broadly.

I'd expect that whatever is decided upon for a new Enterprise set will be designed to take advantage of the 1500VDC overhead catenary, which will hopefully be extended to Drogheda with the DART upgrades. It would also go without saying that said trains will be designed to be comfortable for long distance passengers.

Which brings me to another thought: both of the above are issues for other services based out of Connolly Station, the Sligo/Longford and Rosslare line services. That is, I know that those godawful 29000 rattle boxes are commonly used on the Sligo line and though I don't know about Rosslare, I wouldn't be surprised. Additionally the Rosslare line as far as Greystones is and hopefully soon the Maynooth line will be under catenary wires themselves.

My question is therefore, would it make sense to get a common trainset for Belfast, Sligo and Rosslare line services, including in-between commuter destinations like Dundalk and Longford, on the basis that all these services could benefit from having proper long distance trains using the overhead wires when they are available? I think this might make more sense that just getting a small number of Enterprise trains, then a few years later thinking about what to do with the other Connolly based services and maybe having to get another small number of yet another different type of trainset. Is anyone at Irish Rail thinking about what to serve Sligo, Rosslare, Dundalk etc services with in say 5 or 10 years?

dowlingm

I thought (and said here) that Enterprise should have been converted to 22K years ago. They would have had better timekeeping than 201/DD and a higher top speed than 29K. They bought those few trainsets with NI train control and it took years for any to run up there, continuing to send 29Ks instead. But the joint ownership model of Translink and IE would likely have complicated that since some way would have been needed to swap 201/Mk3EGV/DD for 22000s and some kind of financial settlement, and assuming it didn’t trigger any procurement protests due to the value of the transaction - or require the deeply dysfunctional assembly to approve. Also, the NI fitted cabs weren’t from first class trainsets.

bk

First of all, yes the tender for the new Enterprise replacements specify the following:

• bimode/trimode operation, 1.5kv DC (DART lines) + Diesel engine/batteries initially.
• The option to later remove the Diesel engine/batteries and to switch to 1.5kv DC/25kv AC dual voltage operation once the line has been completely electrified.

I suspect whatever wins the contract for the Enterprise, would also end up a strong contender for an eventual Mark 4 replacement on the Cork route, as it faces the same timing challenges with electrification of the line.

Citizen Six

This diesel/battery combo is going to be a disaster.

afatbollix

They are doing very well in the UK at the moment. As the trains are lighter these days it's not an issue carrying around an engine. Its probably those trains that will win this tender.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121923977#Comment_121923977

Isn't Irish Rail the first to tender for tri-mode sets?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121925108#Comment_121925108

The class 756 a tri-mode train made by Stadler FLIRT will start entering service this year in the UK. They are based on the Class 755 which are bi-mode trains from FLIRT, so clearly they are quiet happy with them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_756

CAF have also won a contract for intercity trimode trains:

https://www.electricandhybridrail.com/content/news/lner-to-roll-out-first-tri-mode-long-distance-trains-for-east-coast-main-line/

Italy already has Tri-mode trains for more then a year now:

https://www.railway-technology.com/news/hitachi-rail-blues-train-service/

A1ACo

On some positive notes at least that is three different companies (Stadler, CAF, & Hitachi) all offering tri-mode rail products, are already operating, or are about to start operating, and Europe based, that can be chosen from. There are also some Bi-mode systems that maybe not too far from possible upgrade to tri-mode operation e.g. Talgo (Talgo 250)/ Bombardier - RENFE 730, and Newag Impluls models. Some of the Enterprise discussions last year under below covered some of this:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057135436/enterprise-refurbishment-comes-closer

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058341796/enterprise-replacement-and-connolly-station-based-trains-generally

29 heaps of scrap rattle and belch their way to rosslare quite regularly.

they are in quite a state these days as well, they need a heavy refurbishment but will have to hold out for whichever of maynooth or droghida dart+ comes on stream first.

andrewfaulk

controversial opinion but could the CAF mk5 sets(Nova 3) be a quick and cheap solution..

Due to COVID and the shambles that is rail policy in the U.K., they are barely used and available now.. Given CAFs background, I’m sure they could produce Irish gauge bogies relatively quickly to put under them.. Also, as the U.K. government is likely on the hook for substantial lease fees, the lease could be transferred to NIR to save wasting what is otherwise dead money while the coaches sit in Long Marston in storage..

The benefit of loco hauled of course being that your power source is easily changed by swapping out the loco up front, so they could be hauled by the 201s for now and the loco could be replaced with a 25KV/1500V DC dual voltage once the wires are up all the way from Dublin to Belfast..

A1ACo

Obtaining some of the UK's Mk5 sets (Nova 3) might not be a terrible idea, though they are a bit narrower than most Irish stock, and not sure how much converted(?), or new bogies would cost… and the idea (floated by the NTA?) of taking excess UK stock, was floated a few years ago for additional Enterprise services - the Class 222 Meridians (according to Wikipedia!).

Today's Railways-Europe magazine is reporting for example that Denmark's DSB is starting to delivery of Talgo 230 loco-hauled intercity stock, and it seems that Germany's DB made a large order for same loco-hauled carriages last year also. With Austria running modern, loco-hauled inter-city trains too, at least Irish Rail is not too much of an outlier still running the Enterprise loco-hauled inter-city (and Mk.4 to Dublin-Cork, etc.), but haven't previous noises been made for multiple-unit stock i.e. DMU/EMU for the future Enterprise?

L1011

The NTA told public reps they were looking at UK stock, I think the 222s were the only plausible option.

That faffery, along with the idea of refitting the 2700s and even converting the 8200s to a carriage rake, delayed the 29000 intermediate order significantly. I don't think they have the resources to handle this so maybe looking at the Nova3's is a really bad idea from that perspective!

Hibernicis

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/04/09/dublin-belfast-train-to-take-less-than-two-hours-and-run-hourly-after-multimillion-euro-investment/

Mention of this on this morning's IT

The scale of their vision and ambition is spectacular………..

Department for Transport Minister Eamon Ryan TD also welcomed the initiative. “This is another indication of the ambition we have to put the island of Ireland on track for a new age of rail, connecting more cities and towns and opening up quality rail service to more people.”

Northern Secretary Chris Heaton-Harris said the “fantastic investment” in the Enterprise fleet would lead to the transformation of cross-Border rail services.

European Commissioner for Cohesion and Reforms Elisa Ferreira said….. “The investment will bring concrete benefits for the local communities. Citizens and businesses will have easier and quicker access to Dublin and Belfast and be more connected. This will help the local communities grow and create opportunities, while delivering on the net-zero carbon emissions goal,”

Difficult to believe that these fine words are about an improvement of between 10 and 20 mins (reducing the 185km journey from 2:05/2:15 to 1:55) that is going to take at least 5 years.

Truly woeful.

Losty Dublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996134#Comment_121996134

As I understand it, these savings in time are based on improvements using multiple units over loco hauled on the route. The 22000's kill rather a lot of time at stations when covering links on the route, especially on the quieter services. No reason why 10-15 minutes couldn't be saved as is.

goingnowhere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972990#Comment_121972990

NTA has zero knowledge of railway ops, the last time they were going to lease trains from the UK. Got offered 142/143 Pacers. 2 years wasted and eventually they approved the 41 ICR fleet order

222's are already being snapped up in the UK, the conversion costs would be frightening and as its an old design would it meet requirements today with the CRR??

UK Mk5's are dreadful, poor quality and have been impacted by a structual cracking issue. Odds are Chiltern will take the bulk of the Mk5 based on a recent tender

Mk5's also us a UIC push pull system, no AAR and require ETH, so no good with a 201 class so you are into buying a new wonder locomotive as well so there is no time advantage either

Better focus on getting the DART+ fleet here and inservice to release ICR stock off commuter and get the contract in for Dublin Belfast

Geuze

Are there any suitable trains in the UK that we could buy to expand our stock in the short-term, while waiting on new stock to be built?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004738#Comment_122004738

No.

The UK has a huge rolling stock shortage; most of what may be available is 25kV AC and anyway; they would all need to be re-bogied. Re-bogeying carriages isn't terrible hard, doing it on trains with underfloor motors, engines, fuel tanks etc etc is much harder.

highdef

Plus the UK has a very restrictive loading gauge with the maximum allowed being 9' 3" with some rolling stock being less than 9' wide. It's not all that long since we got rid of the narrow UK specced loading gauge stock (Mk II and MK III carriages) and it would be good if we didn't have to use such narrow carriages again.

Whilst the Irish loading gauge is rather restrictive versus the track gauge, we can still accommodate wider carriages than those in the UK. The likes of the DART trains are 9' 6" wide but we can go wider with some carriages in the past being up to 10' wide and as much as 10' 2" wide (Laminates and Park Royals). Obviously, a longer carriage will mean width will be more restrictive but for the likes of the new DART carriages, which have carriages that are shorter than both laminates and Park Royals, I can see no reason why we can't make full use of the Irish loading gauge for that new stock.

Sorry for going slightly off topic!

What train sets will IR & Translink use when the Enterprise service is due to go hourly at the end of this year/2025?

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122060423#Comment_122060423

22000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122060883#Comment_122060883

Would we be looking at reallocation of existing 22000's for this service?

goingnowhere

IE will provide a mix of 3 and 6 coach TPWS fitted sets. Since the new 41 centre cars have started to enter service the priority has been to get the 5 coach sets back to 6 coach config. The bulk of the 41 will be in service before the hourly service kicks off

NIR has no choice but to use C3K stock as thats all it has

I'd guess we are looking at, the allocation rules historically have been that Belfast provides 2 sets and Dublin 1 so that will likely even up, but the onus is on IE for the 4th, NIR 5th, IE 6th if that makes sense

1 6 First TPWS ICR

1 3 TPWS ICR

1 C3K

Citizen Six

First train out of Dublin in the morning is 6 x ICR at the moment. Short term though.

And I've heard they are already training up a bunch of new drivers for the new services coming in October.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121967819#Comment_121967819

29k units will be refurbed in bits and pieces. I can’t understand why they don’t do the seats while they already have them removed while replacing the floors.
New PIS going into them too.

SeanW

I may be out like a lighthouse here, but I'd hope that when new trains are being considered for Dublin Belfast, the order could include some new trains for Sligo and Rosslare services, because they share similarities. E.g. being based out of Connolly, being in need of new trains, and being under catenary for part of their journey (which the Sligo line will be as far as Kilcock after DART+ West.

This would be preferable IMO to having these lines continue with 29k rattle boxes for another decade or so until yet another train type would be needed.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122071917#Comment_122071917

presumably because that would make sense to do the seats as well, so instead they have to be different and make things more complex.

end of the road

freeing up a few ICRS would remove the 29 problem from both lines for good.

the 29 scrap yards don't operate them in full so it's an easily solved problem especially going forward.

don't get me wrong new trains to a high speck would be nice but not going to happen unfortunately.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004868#Comment_122004868

The whole EU seems to be suffering from "quality" rolling stock shortages, there's plenty of old boots knocking about, that no one wants.

Strange thing is that companies like Alstom, CAF, Stadler all seem to have stagnating or dipping share prices (last 5 years). The only EU exception seems to be Siemens Mobility. One wonders are these companies actually able to deliver on the tenders they've won on time.

GE, EMD and Hitachi Rail have all been climbing for years

Citizen Six

First 29k with new PIS coming into service this week.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080094#Comment_122080094

if it's anything like the Dart, it'll display "Mind the Gap" or "Irish Rail" 95% of the time before briefly displaying the name of the approaching station as the train slows down. I can't understand why they've spent money on fancy new screens only to have them showing static information most of the time - they could put "mind the gap" on stickers on the doors! They should show Destination/NextStation/Time to Next Station all the time.

Seamie123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086330#Comment_122086330

This x 100. If you look up as the doors open at the station, the information on where you are is gone and you see people trying to find a sign on the platform. Madness.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087305#Comment_122087305

but hey, in a couple of years they'll just turn them off because they're faulty like every previous PIS they've had.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086330#Comment_122086330

Who worked on the new Dart ones? These new units look very similar. Fitted by Spanish lads, but not sure if they are from Caf.
At least they’ll address the issue with speakers that don’t work on the 29s. Drivers make announcements, but they often don't get heard due to faulty speakers.

dowlingm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080022#Comment_122080022

interesting take. GE sold their locomotive division to Wabtec, and no passenger locomotive is currently being offered in North America from their stable of products or powered by them. Similarly, Tier 4 was a blow to EMD since the 710 couldn’t manage it, so they offered the F125 with their sister company Caterpillar’s engine and only one agency bought it (and didn’t have a fun time introducing it).

Siemens are making money hand over fist because as far as US made new build diesel passenger locomotives go, they are the only game in town.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122111551#Comment_122111551

I believe physical Locomotive Safety mechanisms on US trains are better than in the EU. I know Siemens did have to do a lot of work on ACS-64 to get it to comply with US Safety standards.

Interesting times, Siemens has a monopoly on a lucrative yet comparatively stagnant passenger train market.

dowlingm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122136359#Comment_122136359

stagnant for a while but actually having a small renaissance because decades of underinvestment are coming home to roost while demand is soaring, for varying reasons. Whole fleets of trains - power and coaches - have been retained a decade or three past their sell-by and now Amtrak, CTDOT, Ontario Northland, VIA Rail Canada and others are all being obliged to replace rolling stock as the likes of Brightline are desperate to expand

The problem is that it has perhaps come a little too late for companies like CAF, Brookville, Kawasaki to get a piece of. While Siemens has the cash flow to open a new facility in South Carolina, Nippon Sharyo in Illinois and Talgo in Wisconsin are dead and gone, and Alstom can’t build “Buy America” federally funded orders from Canadian plants to any useful extent.

as for the safety thing - there’s strong opinion on that on both sides over here and you are seeing some Euro-spec DMUs and what not show up here under Alternate FRA rules. The legacy FRA Tier 1 rules put a big emphasis on sheer buff strength rather than crash energy management which puts manufacturers in a cleft between axle weight and passing compression tests - and that was what brought down Nippon Sharyo

Red Alert

The new PIS from pictures looks like a right bodge job on the 29s. The exterior displays are smaller, and can show less text than the old ones. The original interior scrolling LEDs were quite legible… the new ones look amateurish. No doubt Irish rail will soon use them to remind us again to Seachainn an Bhearna continuously. I wonder if they couldn’t just have replaced the head-end for the system using the existing displays - most use relatively standard communication protocols.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159158#Comment_122159158

New system also replaces the PA system, so announcements will actually work. And new CCTV system too. Alarms triggered in the carriage will then display the associated camera to the driver.

Jem72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122080094#Comment_122080094

I had to endure one of these to Edgeworthstown from Drumcondra yesterday evening. Can't really see the point in fitting the new PIS. The external displays are a lot smaller and it still doesn't actually work. It started announcing "This is the last stop" at Mullingar. It also spent at least half the time displaying "Mind the Gap" or an Irish Rail logo. Complete waste of money.

The old system actually gave more information as it used to announce every stop which while useless to regular passengers was very useful to those unfamiliar with the train.

goingnowhere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160110#Comment_122160110

They always did on the 29k, that was spec from factory in 2003…

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122312896#Comment_122312896

New one still announces each stop.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122313118#Comment_122313118

Sure they did. 🤣

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122312896#Comment_122312896

I was thinking this myself recently. The original 29k PIS was very unreliable for the first few years but it seems to be solid now.

Glaceon

I was on a Newry-bound 29k last Friday with the new PIS. It was working fine up until a few minutes before arriving into Drogheda, where it blurted out Tara Street and Connolly as the next stops. It then reverted to an Irish Rail logo for the remainder of the time I was on it. This was the sort of thing I remembered the old system doing in its early days, as well as the internal LED screens printing their messages backwards!

I also noticed that the new system now uses the Irish "An tIúr" on the displays, but the announcements still just say Newry.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544872#Comment_122544872

The new system doesn’t recognise where it is when it reboots. It’ll pick up at the start of the route again, until the driver corrects it.

Beta Ray Bill

Yesterday, as result of the signaling issue, my DART left Connolly at the exact same time as the Enterprise.

I got a good look at the West Facing side of the coaches… They are VERY beaten up looking. There's big dents on all the Doors. There's a lot of corrosion and the outside is filthy.

I think Irish Rail/NIR have given up on those coaches.

Still no takers on the tender for a replacement as far as I can see.

Beta Ray Bill

Newly refurbed generator car at Connolly station this morning… I guess they're going to keep the existing rolling stock a bit longer.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635730#Comment_122635730

I saw that this morning. The Enterprise coach I was on was in rag order. Graffiti on one side, several of the reservation displays were physically broken or not working, and one of the lighting panels at the windows was lifted out. NIR do the maintenance of these coaches, I think questions need to be asked.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122635730#Comment_122635730

Even if they want to get rid of the current sets now I don't think they have the set to replace them. At minimum I think they need to wait for the new order, and I can't imagine they would let vehicles rot for multiple years before the new ones can arrive.

I will say I am interested to see what will get picked. Especially to see if they decide to stay with Locos or if they change to DMU/EMU.

Beta Ray Bill

Not sure if thats the refurbed one.

Looks a bit battered for a refurb...

A1ACo

On a side note, if the Stadler 756 Tri-mode mentioned above was used by IE (or in its operation with Transport for Wales), I wonder if the narrow passage in the mid train power car would end up being closed off to passengers - as it looks like a bit of an anti-social gauntlet dodgy laneway potential. Could be useful maybe for misc. storage, e.g. food cart, bins, parcels?