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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36 DrivingSouth


    Is there anything to be said for a new line North of Enniscorthy to join near carlow going via bunclody? I don't know the lie of the land, possibly too hilly?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    There was a direct curve from Killinick-Killinane that would allow a reinstated line to bypass Rosslare strand, which would get rid of the reversal there. You would need to reinstate the track & ROW there, but that should be doable. The crawl along the quays would still be a big issue.

    Red: Existing track to Rosslare Strand

    Yellow: Rough alignment of direct curve

    Screenshot_20250821-205237.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,804 ✭✭✭jd


    They alluded to a new station at the South End of the town, probably near Wexford Creamery.

    The report said:

    "Connectivity could be further improved byreinstating the railway between Waterfordand Rosslare (including a chord/curve tothe south of Wexford) and extendingsome Dublin – Waterford intercityservices to a new station to the south ofWexford O’Hanrahan once the linebetween Heuston and Waterford hasbeen upgraded. With improvements tothe intercity corridors described above,this would reduce journey times betweenDublin and Wexford by around an hour."

    They also included this diagram look like they think with electrification and 200 km hr running they could do Heuston- Waterford in about 1 hr 15 mins, and Heuston Wexford in about 1 hour 45

    image.png image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,201 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    It's proposed that Dublin to Warerford journey times will be 90 minutes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,023 ✭✭✭GerardKeating




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 389 ✭✭Thunder87


    For anyone who might know, has there been any schedule shared for when this is hoped to be delivered?

    I thought I'd read one of the western ones would be done first but does that mean this one just has to sit in the queue for years or is it planned to do them concurrently? Presumably they also have to coordinate with busconnects to make sure there can be adequate replacement buses for when the lines are out of action



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,876 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Why not make it a bullet train, or maglev, even quicker! Tunnel under the Barrow obviously.

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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,969 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    No real idea on implementation yet, but the West one is planned to be completed first, as that's the project that will house the new Depot (which still has to go to planning again, it was rejected the last time).

    However, it's not quite like BusConnects, as I'd expect the lines to remain open and in use during most of the construction. Installing the substations won't require closures as they'll be done offline, the infrastructure for the overhead wires will probably be done overnight and at weekends. The major disruptive works will be stuff that's along the lines of bridge replacement (when they need to raise a bridge for overhead wires) or track lowering (for when they need to make space for overhead wires but the bridge can't be removed).

    It'll be a lengthy process, but I would imagine that most of the work could happen concurrently.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,048 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Thankfully the other 4 local authorities seem more amenable to much higher densities along rail corridors. Most of the housing development will take place outside Dublin City in these local authority areas at the end of the day.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,776 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Reinstating Wexford South station (poorly documented online, some mention of its closure in 1977) is in the county development plans now; so I'm fairly sure that if services are routed out via Waterford they'll be from Wexford South.



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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,969 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Meant to comment on this at the time, but there was an incredible response to the heights on this plan, to the point that DCC couldn't ignore them. They have since updated the draft plan, and where the original proposal was to have mostly 4 to 5 storey buildings, the plan now has mostly 6 to 8 storeys.

    It's all very suspicious though, as the increase height has apparently not resulted in any increase in the number of apartments, or an increase in the density. Dublin Inquirer asked them about this, but it doesn't seem like they got back to them at all.

    I think DCC screwed up some basic maths on the first plan, and don't want to admit it, so they're actually blaming everyone else for it in the report. Like, look at this:

    Many of the submissions to the public consultation had criticised the council for failing to meet national guidelines for density, says the report.

    But that was actually a difference in how they had calculated, said the council report. 

    The Ballyboggan masterplan area cover 77ha. But only 28ha of that is to be developed for housing, the report says. 

    What a load of auld bollix.

    The good news out of it is that DCC have also heard how utterly insane the name was, and are now calling it the Broombridge-Hamilton masterplan. Still can't believe that they even went with Ballyboggan on a temporary basis, you'd swear that DCC don't actually say these words out load and hear themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭spillit67


    I saw a developer say that the plan didn’t actually make it worthwhile for people to sell up as the density was too low.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 240 ✭✭Heartbreak Hank


    Could the actual battery electric DART trains run to Rosslare as the intercity service i.e. it is a DART to Wicklow at the same frequency as the rest but 1 an hour or every 2 hours or whatever continues on as the intercity. On the way back it runs Rosslare to Wicklow as intercity and then operates as a regular DART to the city?

    I don't know if the pain would be worth the gain and would it even be feasible with the battery operation for 100+ km, would need charging in Rosslare. Probably would need toilets on those particular DARTs too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    The last part of that article strikes me as important. I'm not sure what the legal/constitutional position is there. CPO the land and then rezone sounds like a recipe for a long court case! But maybe it's an important matter that needs to be resolved by the courts.

    Also, Dublin Inquirer is great for this sort of stuff, and everyone should pay for a sub to keep it going! :) (I've no connection to DI other than my own subscription)

    Kilroy says the biggest problem he sees is that the state is rezoning land for homes, which increase the land values by hundreds of percent but without getting in on the action itself. 

    “It strikes me as a huge missed opportunity,” says Kilroy. “The state should purchase the land ahead of rezoning and take advantage of the uplift to deliver amenities.”

    In the United Kingdom, the government has established a state development company to do that, says Kilroy.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,969 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    No, the distance is too great. The distance is about 80km as the crow flies, and that's about the rated distance that the trains can do on battery. IR aren't going to do that when they'll be building in a safety margin into the journey, i.e. the batteries will never be allowed to get to the point that they might run out on a journey.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Realistically, if Wexford were served by Dub-Waterford services, how much of the existing Wexford line can be served by an extended/even if more limited Dart service? Gorey?



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,969 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Yes, a lot of the businesses there are going concerns. A few will close down and sell up, but most of them will want to continue operating in some other location.

    Any price offered for their land will need to cover the cost of buying another warehouse in another location, plus the cost of adapting that warehouse, plus the cost of adapting their business model to the new location, plus an amount that could be considered "profit".

    It's a load of bull, to be honest, one that shows the people talking about it don't know how a CPO works.

    CPOing the land means that they have to buy it at fair market value, but in order to successfully get a CPO, you need to show a legitimate need. What's the fair market value of land that is being purchased to be rezoned as residential? It'd 100% be the value of the land when zoned as residential.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,876 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    also they'll be doing Greystones to Wicklow on battery, so the actual distance without OHLE is over 100km. Hydrogen trains might be a future option

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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,969 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    The AIRR says that they'll bring the Dart to Wicklow. I believe that's running on batteries from Greystones.

    Wexford to Greystones would be the shuttle service then.

    It appears that the best way forward for boosting connectivity in the South East of Ireland in the shorter term is to introduce an hourly shuttle service between Wexford and Greystones, with DART services to be extended to Wicklow.

    Connectivity could be further improved by reinstating the railway between Waterford and Rosslare (including a chord/curve to the south of Wexford) and extending some Dublin – Waterford intercity services to a new station to the south of Wexford O’Hanrahan once the line between Heuston and Waterford has been upgraded. With improvements to the intercity corridors described above, this would reduce journey times between Dublin and Wexford by around an hour. This intervention would also support further development of freight services to and from Rosslare Europort.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Also, in terms of passenger comfort the journey time from Rosslare to Dublin is far too long to use a DART train.

    Bray has the necessary extra platform already, but Greystones also has room for a pair of platforms to be added, so a changeover at either of these is likely to be the plan. If passing loops are in place, then there’s a possibility for Rosslare passengers to join a DART service that skips a few of the outer stations before serving each of the inner stations, as done in Copenhagen.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,876 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    that last line is real finger in the air stuff. Rosslare is a RO-RO port with no bulk freight, and the line already passes Waterford port which is rail connected for freight.

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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,969 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    I'm of the opinion that most of the AIRR is finger in the air stuff, to be honest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,201 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    The Galway line improvement project will probably give a flavour of how things will run. I would expect multi-phase projects on the intercity network.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Rosslare-Waterford is a non-starter. The line is really the Wexford-Enniscorthy-Arklow-Wicklow-Dublin line, and a routing via Waterford cannot replace that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,048 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    This is what I think will happen. Direct connection maintained or improved (run those services on out to Maynooth) at the penalty of a slightly longer journey time and I wouldn't even say that's a given as the electric trains would accelerate much faster than the current diesel stock. Long term get the metro out to Bray via the green line upgrade and a lot of passengers can alight in Bray. Nobody has a god given right to an inter city service at inter city speeds through the suburbs anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,876 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I agree, my point being that throwing Rosslare port freight into the mix shows what a half-baked afterthought it is.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,863 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    If there's going to be a routing from Wexford to Waterford then wouldn't that also open up commuter services from one town to the other? How much does the city's economic influence extend to south Wexford anyway?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26 orb123


    https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/news/an-coimisiun-pleanala-approves-dart-coastal-north

    "Work is underway on preliminary design for DART+ Coastal South and for DART+ Depot."

    How much time do they need to do a preliminary design for Coastal South? The public consultation is already 3 years behind schedule.

    If all that's proposed initally is a passing loop between Greystones and Bray one would wonder what's taking so long - maybe insufficient funding?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,201 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    The design was done years ago, the NTA pulled the plug on the public consultation. That might change now with 3 enforceable railway orders for the other lines. Coastal south is likely to be split into 2 projects, improving Bray to Greystones and then closing the Sandymount level crossings, which is unlikely to happen



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, exactly, plus onward journeys to Limerick Junction to Limerick/Cork etc.

    It would help support that routes future and help with the concept of creating a counter weight to Dublin, not all roads/trains lead to Dublin.

    It would also add passenger numbers to the Waterford line, which would help with any CBA's to invest in improving that line, electrification, speed improvements, etc.

    While initially it might seem strange idea, once you think of the details and all the benefits it would have, it starts to make a lot of sense.



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