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Kilkenny GAA Thread

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Formosa


    THe club of the County Board chairman, no less!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 406 ✭✭Nedflanders02


    Fair play that's a great breakdown of the stats and problems at underage across the different grades. Surely there should be someone in Bord na nOg who should looking at these results and winning margins and acting on them but I'd safely say that definitely isn't happening. As much as a clear out is needed in the main board it's even more badly needed at juvenile level.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,194 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    This might be a naive question, but why do the clubs have any say in where they're graded? I know teams are likely to go up and down in standard from year to year, but could the cb not simply mandate that each roinn has to be equal in number of teams, and the winners of c and b go up at the end, and the losers of a and b get relegated after a relegation final?

    I'm sure some clubs would feel aggrieved to find that they end up in, say, roinn b, when they have a slightly lower quality pick coming through, but it would surely be a more equitable competition overall than this farce of clubs more or less placing themselves in whatever competition they think they can win handy, prioritizing the short term "satisfaction" of that win over the long term development of players.

    I'm sure there's some reason this can't be done, and I'm sure it's more complicated than just saying this is how it is, but surely this is a problem with a solution!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 301 ✭✭KK36


    Lisdowney using their influence to pull a fast one. The Chairman should be ashamed of himself. No wonder they won nothing for 40 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Formosa


    Thomastown U16 around 2008 were the first I heard of at this craic, they were regarded as second best in Roinn A but way behind the boro and managed to get themselves into Roinn B…then got knocked out in the B by Dunamaggin, it was hilarious.

    Not sure if the boro even won the A, they probably did but their U16 record back them wasn't exactly stellar, a few "dream teams" came a cropper.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 196 ✭✭Sir Chaz


    Amalgamated clubs should never be allowed play in the lowest division. Galmoy/Windgap another crowd who should be ashamed that they are hockeying mostly B team players in the lowest U14 Grade. Lisdowney the same at U16 but they have form for that. Neither club is achieving anything and the county finals they'll inevitably win will be extremely hollow as their players development will have regressed playing at a level below they should be. Mentors are the main problem, appealing Gradings year in and year out to try and win a County Final at a lower level, and then think they're great lads.

    The Juvenile board leadership is even more incompetent than the Adult board, it's a complete cod.

    Free Palestine 🇵🇸



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,151 ✭✭✭kksaints


    Would something like how the FAI do the LOI underage leagues be better? Based on the U-15 leagues an Initial group stage based on Geography and then once that is complete the clubs are divided into tiered competition based on the finishing positions in the initial groups. It's farcical that there's such a massive difference in the number of clubs in Roinn B and Roinn C



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 Town legend


    You'd nearly swear a Roinn C or B medal gained by acting the shitehawk has some type of mythical currency.

    No wonder we aren't within an asses roar of getting what we all want when at grassroots level,you have local gombeens pulling strokes and thinking they're after pulling a fast one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭Marrooned


    just another section of the CB that needs to be overhauled,and I don’t want to hear any bitching from CB apologists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 163 ✭✭mooz


    It was farcical when the juvenile board allowed last year's U14 Roinn A winners to compete at Roinn B this year, which they will surely win. Some clubs getting preferential treatment as regards regrading, it's been going on for far too long. Transparency and consistency severely lacking



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭Senditinlow


    See the U14 A league final was won on penalties after ET. I attended a Juvenile Co. Board meeting last winter where reps brought this to the top tables attention ( think a Co Final was decided on penalties at some grade last year). All agreed that they'd seriously look at replays before having a shootout, obviously fell on deaf ears. Left my post as club rep because of the bullshit that goes on in there. I'd love to see both management teams agreeing after extra time not to do penalties. Just walk away and tog off. Force their hand into a replay



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭Senditinlow


    Just so happens the Juvenile Chairman is from this club, won the League Final in B....they/he must be proud of their skull duggery. No doubt you knew this anyway Mooz



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,098 ✭✭✭Oíche Na Gaoithe Móire


    Laois man here.

    When I first heard of underage clubs being able to pick their division in Kilkenny I thought it was a really bad case of the tail wagging the dog.

    The club I had a connection to in Kilkenny were good enough for the A championship but had no ambition.

    In Laois we're split between football and hurling. We had good underage county football teams from 1994 to 2009. The club had no say regarding divisions and you moved through them by results. If your U14s were a lot weaker than the year before, so be it. The team moved on from the year before would get their shot at U16.

    I remember one of the best days I ever had playing football was beating Portlaoise in an U17 county A semi in 1992. They had a super team, all lads the age, lots of county minors. We were a really rural team. Of our 15 starters 5 were only 13! We beat them by 6 points. We lost the A final by 5 pts to Mountmellick. But I'd take it over a B title any day.

    If some lad in the club had a choice we'd be pulled back to the B. A bit of ambition is great and players play above themselves.

    'Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio? A nation turns It's lonely eyes to you.'



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 Multispeed


    Long time lurker, first time poster but this topic really drives me insane.

    The biggest question I have and maybe it's a stupid one, but I think it's the root cause of all the issues. Why are there only 3 Roinns? I know a bit about the under 16 grade due to family involvement in a couple of teams, so I'll use that as an example. Why 20 or so teams in each of roinn b and c? Why not 8 teams in roinn A, 8 in b, 8 in c, 8 in d, 8 in e and so on? Is it because clubs don't want to say they're in roinn e or more likely, someone in bord na nog with a bee in their bonnet. Surely it's better to have groups of even teams and competitive games, than having 7 or 8 teams in each roinn handing out beatings to the other teams in there? It's not that those 7 or 8 are too good for that division a lot of the time, it's more common that the other 10 or 12 teams are not good enough for it, and should be in a lower roinn.

    Take 2 examples, gowran and mullinavat seem too strong for roinn b going on their results, but I've seen both of these teams play the bottom teams in roinn A and get beaten by 20 points or more. Kilmacow, Carrickshock, Ballycallan, Mooncoin, Inistioge also handed out big beatings to other roinn b teams. So instead of punishing these teams for being "too good" for b and making them take horrific beatings in A, take the teams that aren't good enough for B, and put them in a competitive C, same for roinn c to d, d to e and so on.

    It would mean the same amount of games for the county board to organise and officiate, but much better and more even standard for all involved. I think if this was done, you'd have way fewer teams trying to "cheat" the system and go down a division. But to be very honest, and it seems to go against the opinions of most on here, I don't think that's a big problem. Might happen with 1 or 2 teams every few years, but the mentors who try to do those things quickly get weeded out of clubs.

    Obviously at under 14 level it can be hard to figure out who should go in each division but at under 16 and 18 you have the results from 2 years previous and its not likely that teams abilities change that much.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,293 ✭✭✭Billy Ocean


    Funny thing is it doesn't do the players winning games by cricket scores any good, competitive games whatever the division benefits the players long term.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭Senditinlow


    Mullinavat walked U13 B 3 years ago and same group in Roinn B 3 years later, beggars belief. Not rocket science to look back on results from previous grade 2 years previous (in this case 3 because of odd number change). Same grade Gowran have come down from Roinn A 3 years later, only team that will compete. Be shocked if either don't win it out. PS Mullinavat have 3 on U16s A county squad and 2 on U15 As.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 Lemangio


    Lisdowney lost every match they played so far u16 this year so I'm not sure what form you're on about🤔



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 Multispeed


    Fair point, but I see online that Gowran beat Mullinavat in a league play off.

    Gowran didn't win 1 match in under 15 or under 16 league in Roinn A for the past 2 years, taking some terrible beatings. I know they played the bottom teams in Roinn A. In challenge matches and lost very heavily. The same teams that lost very heavily to the top teams in A.

    The answer isn't putting more teams into divisions and forcing teams to play at grades that they are not good enough for. I'm sure the city teams don't want to be beating those teams by 50 points. It's no good for them either. The solution is more divisions. If people don't want to say they're in roinn E then make it A, A1, B, B1 etc.

    I don't think a lot of people understand the disparity between the top of A and the top of B, it's way bigger than the gap between the top of B and the bottom of B. That is just life, clubs go through phases, small clubs will struggle with numbers up to the age, put them in groups of 8 where they are as close as possible to the others in the group. Let them play each other twice if that means more competitive matches rather than 11 or 12 matches in a group of 20 that you lose by 40 points.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40 Takeyourpoints


    The divisions are a mess, it's been that way for 20 years and hearing that teams are asking to be in lower divisions just so they'll win is shocking. When I was u16 and minor the chance to play in A was an honour and a welcome challenge to be playing against the best. We got a few beatings at u14 and u16 but it steeled us by the time we were minor and we put it up to all the city teams. That has stood by us till today.

    Another part of this is that the championship draw has been decided already. Why shouldn't the league performances feed into the championship performances to create new divisions? E.g. if we had 12 teams in A and B and two groups. The top 4 in each group in A would make up the A championship (8 teams). The bottom 2 in each group would be in B along with the top 4 in each group in B (12 teams in B championship). The bottom two in each in B would be in C for championship and so on until we had 4 or 5 divisions. The draw would be done after the conclusion of the league.

    I know some people might think that teams would lose on purpose to go into the lower divisions but I don't think 14 or 15 year olds would ever go out on the pitch thinking that. It would hopefully mean a more even championship.

    The truth is that you can't base underage divisions off of past performances, which makes it so difficult. Players develop and change, young lads give up between u16 and minor so there's no perfect solution.

    It's clear an overhaul is needed in the Bord Na nÓg and county board.

    (Aware that it's easy to say that and not put myself in that position, but it's something I'd hope to be involved with when I'm not so busy with a young family)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 196 ✭✭Sir Chaz


    U14 I clearly meant, in response to another post. Absolutely bizarre how there are just 6 teams in Roinn B and 16 in Roinn C at U14. Either a concerted attempt by multiple clubs to play in the lowest grade possible and instead of doing their job and administering it properly, the county board decided 'do what ye want' and just lumped them all in.

    There are clearly clubs who should be in the lowest grade, but they are being done a serious disservice by both the county board, and also by clubs who shamelessly either lobby or just allow their teams to play there. The gradings are a mess.

    I'd agree as well that there should be some correlation between league performance and championship draws. Both in terms of making teams like Lisdowney at U14 and Galmoy/Windgap at U16 play up a grade, and that the top placed teams should be put in different halves of draw. Not foolproof but better than the current status quo.

    Free Palestine 🇵🇸



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,779 ✭✭✭Village87




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 Multispeed


    I think people don't understand how big the gaps in standards are. Good roinn A to poor roinn A. 20 points probably. Poor roinn A to good roinn B. Another 20. Good roinn B to poor roinn B, 20, poor roinn B to good roinn C, 20. The gaps really are that big. Anyone who questions that, just look at the results within divisions. I'd bet any money you take Galmoy/windgap from under 16 c and put them in B, they would struggle massively, same for the best teams in B and put them in A.

    It's not the players fault, it's not the coaches fault, it's just lack of numbers, size, etc And it evens out a bit more as they get older. A good country club will have a group of players able to really compete at roinn A maybe once every 10 years if they're lucky. City teams will always have the numbers to be strong. Castlecomer have a good group at 18 and 17 now, but very little for 10 years before and operating at roinn C under 16 and 14. Ballycallan gone through similar phases, tullaroan, gowran, thomastown, ballyhale, dunnamaggin etc. It's a natural fact of population. It's not coaches wanting to be in roinn C for the sake of it. Obviously there will be an outlier every now and then, but it's not systematically abused like some people here seem to think.

    The problem is with the county board structures of lumping too many uneven teams in together.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40 Takeyourpoints


    I think saying poor Roinn B team that gets hammered by 20 points against a good Roinn B team is 20 points better than a Roinn C team that is beating everyone around them is a bit of an overstatement? Surely that's a case of incorrect grading..

    Clubs go through phases and have their good groups and those teams should be identified based on their results. In fairness to Thomastown, Ballycallan, Dunnamaggin etc, they often move teams up to A when they have a good bunch of players from what I've seen over the years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,245 ✭✭✭Ceist_Beag


    @Multispeed , on your point "I'd bet any money you take Galmoy/windgap from under 16 c and put them in B, they would struggle massively", I can't agree. Piltown, Galmoy Windgap and Emeralds should all be in Roinn B, they're all good enough to compete there and most people involved know that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 Lemangio


    Lisdowney have played the last 4+ years roinn C in primary school and never even made a final nevermind actually winning it out. They were bet in the 1st round u14 roinn C last year. What evidence was there before this year to suggest they should currently be playing at a higher level than u14 roinn C?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,779 ✭✭✭Village87


    Amalgamated clubs should be not be in the bottom Division full stop.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 Multispeed


    It's a case of not enough grades. There are very obviously 5 groups of 7 or 8 teams that are on a par and should be grouped together. But each of those groups would be 20 points worse than the group ahead of them and 20 points better than the group below them. The gaps really are that big. And that's natural.

    Lots of clubs move up when they know they have a good group. As someone mentioned dunnamggin, ballycallan, thomastown, gowran have all done it recently. But there seems to be a massive resentment among people here, and definitely in the county board about them going back down again when they need to. There's nothing wrong with moving down when you know you can't compete, just as much as its the right thing to do to move up when you know you can compete.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 Multispeed


    Perfect example. Not Lisdowneys fault that they are beating other teams when they've put the effort in to develop them. They probably should be roinn C, but with 2 more divisions below them for teams that aren't good enough for C. Maybe they are the 17th or 18th best team in the county. But grouped with teams that are 28th or 30th. Not their fault. Fault of the 3 divisions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 196 ✭✭Sir Chaz


    They've won their games by an average of 22pts. Do you think they're in the right grade??

    Schools form often doesn't correlate to clubs given the variations in where players from clubs actually attend national school. The coaches know who they have before they start any given year. They're the ones pushing the gradings, albeit sometimes it's just Co Board incompetence.

    26 teams in Roinn C at U14 smacks of the Co Board just throwing everyone together and see what happens. If they were doing that they may as well have thrown the B teams up to A as well and just had 2 grades. At the very least they should be reforming the grades for Championship based on league form, with the likes of Lisdowney etc taken out of C to spare teams more embarrassments. Same with Galmoy/Windgap at u16.

    Free Palestine 🇵🇸



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 Lemangio


    No they're not currently in the right grade as the results show. But there was nothing whatsoever beforehand to suggest that they'd be as dominant in the grade as they are. If this same crop of players are Roinn C at u16 level, then questions should be asked alright but I don't know what you expect a club to do when the previous years u14s had won nothing at that level and the current crop of u14 players had won nothing at younger levels.



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