N25 - Midleton to Youghal [planning and design to commence 2023]

Yes you are missing something.

M9 is a more important route, nationally, as it connects Waterford to Dublin via Kilkenny, Carlow and onward to M7, the major approach road to Dublin. N25 is less important, as it connects Waterford with Cork (okay, Rosslare harbour with Cork!), a much smaller population centre, and only Dungarvan and Youghal in between.

Traffic volume on M9 might be lower, but the type of traffic is very different. M9’s is more evenly spread throughout the day - also note that the “% HGV” is twice that of N25. That section of N25, on the other hand, has extreme peaks in morning and evening, but is very quiet at other times (I know, because I regularly use this road, and I make sure to avoid those peak times).

The plan for this part of N25 is a 2+2 dual carriageway, but the very high traffic on this road is not a sign of population growth that must be accommodated so much as a dysfunctional housing market that has forced people who work or study in Cork to live very far away from the city (that annual figure will drop a little as the year progresses and the months without students are included in the total). The only thing driving traffic growth on this road is a lack of housing closer to Cork

That’s not how it works, and you know it. If it was, there would be no wide roads outside of Dublin, Meath, Louth, Wicklow and Kildare, because that’s where “more individuals” live.

The “National” in National Road means that it is important to the transport needs of people all across the country. There’s no special context here: “National” as in “National Concert Hall”, “National Development Plan”, “National Gallery”, “National Archives” - for the use of all people in the country (seriously, when you’re trying to redefine the meaning of words, you need a stronger argument). N25 is a national road, but it connects smaller centres than N9, so is of less importance nationally. That’s the beginning and end of it.

That section of N25 has long needed an upgrade to bypass Castlemartyr, which has become an unhealthy place to live due to constant traffic, but it is primarirly a commuter corridor from the Mogeely-Castlemartyr-Garryvoe outer commuter belt to Cork City: 30% of traffic here is gone after Castlemartryr. The road is going to be upgraded, but if you’re holding out hope for a motorway, don’t. This will be a 2+2.

This should have been started a long time ago, but Cork County Council decided to champion a widening and extra residential access on the current N25 from Midleton to Glounthaune (that went against their own environmental and land use rules, but sure whatever…) rather than addressing this road. It’s good that this project is finally getting attention, but it should have been started 5 years ago.

Why is N9 a motorway and N25 not?

= How many people live on both ends of these roads?

= How many people live in the catchment of these roads?

= How much of the traffic is heavy freight versus passenger cars.

That last one is important.

I really don’t have dog in this fight. In fact, I use N25 far, far more than I ever use M9. You are the one who came up with a bogus argument based on single-point traffic figures. We all know M9 south is over provisioned, but the Northern end is not, and it is continuity with this, plus the relatively high HGV share using this route that tipped to balance for it to be a motorway all the way. The middle of N25 gets pretty quiet too, you know.

It is a national network, not a local one, and N25 is only heavily trafficked in the part that serves as a local route into and out of Cork city. Cork County Council has a long history of funnelling Cork City’s local traffic onto National roads in order to shift these roads out of its own budget: they even lobbied for the Cobh road to be upgraded to a National route!

Any danger we might talk about the actual N25, rather than complaining that someone else got something you think they didn’t deserve?

Catchment is the primary metric that is considered when building any transport corridor. And you're still looking at things solely from the point of view of private motorists... they are not the most important users of the road network in terms of the operation of the country... almost every single thing you buy in this country has been delivered by road.

Waterford is a city and a port. Its connection to the major population centres on this island is important. Until 2009 that connection was N9, a road that makes the current N20 look like a freeway. That road and its alignment was so inadequate that a completely new route was needed. That route was built as what is now a motorway so that it would not need to be revisited for a very long time (there was a bit of string pulling to get it moved up the schedule, but "high quality dual carriageway" was always the most likely plan.. HQDC roads were all then redesignated as motorways).

By contrast, N25 in East Cork has always been a "good" road, with the exception of needing to go through Castlemartyr and, to a lesser extent, Killeagh. That reduced the need for a complete replacement. A bypass of Castlemartyr would dramatically reduce journey times, but it keeps getting postponed... the County Council has never pushed for it, so TII isn't going to prioritise it off its own bat.

Given that the traffic has eased considerably since mid-June, a better fix for the current traffic would be affordable student accommodation. Accommodation in general is the biggest driver of Corks outer traffic problems: the jobs are all around the city, but people are having to go as far away as Youghal just to be able to afford a roof over their heads.

Excellent. Once money is being handed over, there’s more chance of a scheme continuing.

Is there any clue about the scope of the project at this point?

2+1 without a barrier is a death-trap. Countries that used them are phasing them out. By the way, any new 2+1 build will not use a wire, but instead the same kind of barrier as used in modern 2+2 builds.

A wide single carriagway can be retrofitted to 2+1, but the problem is the large number of exits.

Regarding Castlemartyr, the issue isn’t the volume of traffic, but the mixing of flows. The lights at the bridge are the root cause of the delays in both directions, but they’re needed because it’s the only way to control the flow in such a small space. If you bypass Castlemartyr, and provide a high-capacity junction to handle that mixing, then the problem does not move to Killeagh. Killeagh’s traffic-lights are on a pedestrian crossing, and have a very short red cycle.

The biggest cause of delay westbound through Killeagh is actually people trying to bypass Castlemartyr by turning right for Mogeely. Eastbound it’s always pretty free flowing.

This is moot anyway, because any scheme to do one will do the other too: both towns form opposite dog-legs on N25, so the “bypasses” will end up being shorter than the current road.

Here's the answer for retrofitting a safe 2+1 on our existing single carraigeway roads.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/4tg1BK4yFJpcfVc57

Note the changeover incorporated into a junction. also, the overall width is less than our system of including two wide hard shoulders. BTW, why do we have such wide hard shoulders in this country?

While the full upgrade of the N25 from Midleton to Youghal is a welcome and necessary project, it remains frustrating that a more immediate and cost-effective solution—such as a bypass of Castlemartyr—was not implemented a decade or more ago. Castlemartyr has long been the primary source of congestion on this route, and a targeted bypass would have significantly improved traffic flow and reduced daily disruption for motorists.

The current plan, though beneficial in the long term, involves a much broader scope, longer timelines, and significantly higher costs. Even with recent signs of progress, the possibility of waiting another five years is unacceptable given the daily traffic volumes and the years of frustration endured by road users.

I also know many people who would consider living in Youghal and the surrounding area but are discouraged by the traffic situation. Addressing this issue would not only improve mobility but also unlock the potential for growth across East Cork—making towns like Youghal more attractive for residents, businesses, and tourism.

While Killeagh does experience some congestion, it is not nearly as severe as Castlemartyr. In fact, as other people have said, most of Killeagh’s traffic issues stem from drivers diverting through Mogeely to avoid Castlemartyr, only to rejoin the N25 in the village. This highlights how the lack of a bypass in Castlemartyr has ripple effects on surrounding villages.

This is not just a transport issue—it’s a regional development opportunity.

Yep I'm in strong agreement here. Extend rail to Mogeely with a nice big P&R and also build loads of housing around it. It's a long old stretch but it's a good (very) long-term investment. I know there's bigger rail priorities on the commuter/suburban network, but this one would alleviate some N25 traffic so I'd love to see it considered as a "second wave" of Cork commuter rail network.

As far as I'm concerned Youghal needs industry and amenities, not a road. I really wouldn't like to encourage development of Youghal based on commuting to Cork. It's a greater distance than Amsterdam-Utrecht.

Midleton station isn't easy to get to from N25, but Mogeely, which was earmarked as a special Development Zone, would be because the most likely Castlemartyr bypass will run equidistant between Castlemartyr and Mogeely.

Both can be done.I mentioned Mogeely because it was marked for development in one of the county plans.

That doesn't prevent the rail line being reinstated. In other greenways the land remains in the possession of Irish Rail, hard to see how this would be different, especially when extension to Mogeely is in a long term development plan.

The difference is that Mogeely can be pretty much planned now from scratch as a town and it already has some industry.

I'm in favour of a "Midleton East" P&R too but it would be dependent on resolving a number of Midleton East issues, like a new Eastern distributor for starters.

Neither are going to happen any time soon anyway

I read about a Mogeely SDZ somewhere a couple of years ago... may have been someone on here said it. I'll have a dig and see what I find.