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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,662 ✭✭✭davetherave


    I'm sure we can all agree that Johnny does have some wild out there ideas and thoughts, but I'm over in Fairford for RIAT, and the gripen is a fantastic bit of kit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,754 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    A concern would be someone with anti Irish sentiment doesn't try to put a spanner in it when Ireland is dependent on it.

    Guess that's not unique to the Typhoon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,754 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I don't think the Typhoon even if bought cheap will ever be as cheap as to buy and maintain and run as the Gripen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,924 ✭✭✭thomil


    The problem with that is that the components for the Typhoon are still sourced from all over Europe, before being shipped to the respective final assembly plants. So while the final assembly line at Warton might be lying idle, that doesn't automatically mean that there are free capacities when it comes to wing assemblies, engines, hydraulics, landing gear, radar, you get the point. It's worth pointing out that the assembly lines at Manching in Germany, Getafe in Spain, and Caselle in Italy are all still busy. It's just the UK line that's gone inactive.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,807 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Those factors aren't particularly relevant. You might as well spend 2.5 Billion as 1.5 Billion.

    What matters most is which type will deliver for the Defence Forces and the State. Which plane will operate with greatest resilience, for the longest time, in some of the most turbulent skies, over a million square kilometres of inhospitable seas, and without any tanker service or a whole heap of alternative airfields.

    While I like and admire the Gripen, I came to the conclusion a long time back that a single engined type operating out of Shannon would be a bad idea all round.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,788 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I think the first thing we need to think about is firstly get the Air Corps to the staff level it should be at 1st and then consider expansion of service.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,807 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    That's already the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,754 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I get this thread seems to think money is no object. I also agree the whole twin vs single etops argument especially over the Atlantic. The Typhoon is the better interceptor even the early ones.

    But the Typhoon would cost twice as much to operate. It's a heavier more complex aircraft. Requires more people to maintain.

    Typhoon is the money no object option between these two. While I get the whole, go all in if you're going to do it. But so many projects spiral out of control with that mindset. That's before you get into the lack of people resources.

    Post edited by Flinty997 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,807 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I didn't say money was no object. I said cost wasn't particularly relevant. And it isn't.

    And the reason is the politics of the thing.

    There are the cohort of tankies and wistful columnists who would excoriate you either way, whether you spent 0.5 billion or 2.5 billion or tuppence-ha'penny on defence. Especially on a fighter plane project.

    But that sort of opprobrium would pale into insignificance next to the backlash if the solution procured for that cost failed to do the job.

    There are examples all over the globe of technical and systematic failures in military projects, most often brought about by economisation, where the original project had to be binned or so drastically overhauled, that the ultimate cost was many times what the right solution would have been in the first place.

    So the best solution is the right solution. And the right solution is the proven solution, the durable solution, the appropriately engineered solution.

    The cheapest solution is false economy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,754 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    There are vastly more over funded military failures than under funded ones.

    Many air forces have had to mothball aircraft because not only could they not afford to operate them, but they couldn't maintain enough personnel and pilots.

    Ireland is going backwards with that before this has even started.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,245 ✭✭✭CrowdedHouse


    Rafale it is so 😊

    Dassault have their foot in the door with the new jet

    Seven Worlds will Collide



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,807 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Thinking about the RIAT, the Rafale F5 is going to be a hell of a plane - quantum comms and connectivity, enchanced radar with anti-stealth, the Safran T-Rex engines, drone swarm mothershipping, and nuclear tipped hypersonic missiles.

    However, this type will all go to France for a few years initially, so Ireland will be assessing the B/C variant, with scope to upgrade the avionics and warfighting tech.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,653 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Forgive me, but I’m going to ask you to expand a tad on the Falklands comment. I don’t see how it would have been feasible for the Falklands War to have happened without a navy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,754 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Gets popcorn....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,021 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    The only reason the Argues even thought the Falklands invasion was feasible is that they believed Britain incapable of supporting a naval operation to retake them. Argentina believed the FAA retirement of Phantoms and Buccaneers, gave them free rein.

    The RN for all the shíte I'll happily shovel it's way. Made masterful use of scant resources in supporting the effort to retake the islands. Despite, I'd argue, being setup to fail by the politicians.

    Ricky D Philips has done some brilliant work on the Falklands, both in literature and twitter. Well worth a look



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 576 ✭✭✭exiledawaynothere


    surely if Europe is pushing us to invest in our military there will be a way to get hard ware a bit quicker.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,754 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Cheers.

    I did not know that the General Belgrano (USS Phoenix) was at Pearl Harbour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,166 ✭✭✭sparky42


    The problem being that everyone else also wants hardware, and are already getting orders in, while we are still talking about thinking about scoping purchases.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,166 ✭✭✭sparky42


    They also got bounced into the invasion before the Junta had planned, the RN did as best they could with what they had, though things like the Black Buck raids were questionable use of resources.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,653 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Depends on where you want the stuff from. Korea and the US seem both to be able to put out a lot of product to export customers compared to their European counterparts. Possible exception of Sweden.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,766 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I did also say "other than those needed to land troops and invade other places."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,754 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    It makes no sense. A bomber can't do all the other jobs. Theres a long list of examples across history were trying to win a war from the air alone has failed over and over again.

    You can't have a one expensive unicorn system nothing else. That doesn't work either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,021 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    The SAAB Gripen, albeit in its C/D variant rather than the newest NG E/F variant can now lay claim to being combat proven in the ongoing Thai/Cambodia clash.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,807 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I'm not sure a complete mis-match proves anything.

    The Cambodian air force doesn't have any combat aircraft, even trainers.

    And their Army has a limited number of anti aircraft guns and standalone point-defence missiles with outdated surveillance and control.

    Meanwhile the Thais have Gripens and F-16s to have a field day for themselves. Not to mention an Army 300% the size of Cambodia's, with 400 main battle tanks and advanced western air defence.

    I can't imagine why Cambodia is pushing this in all honesty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,754 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    China backing them maybe. Even though China said they not picking sides.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,021 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    I agree with you, Cambodia pushing this is madness. Much like Flinty I can only imagine their is some ulterior motive and that whatever that is? That China are underwriting it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,754 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Might not be rational people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,807 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Oh for bloody certain.

    This had all come about because of a perceived slight between the Thai royals and the Cambodian authoritarians.

    Medieval level bullsh1t.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭blindsider


    The Dassault PR machine is alive and well:

    Thanks to D Lavery on Twitter for spotting this.

    Appears to be free to access

    https://www.parismatch.com/actu/international/defense-lirlande-se-tournera-t-elle-vers-le-rafale-francais-254781

    image.png image.png image.png


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,166 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Yeah, someone needed to fill some time/space didn't they.



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