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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,299 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Can we see the cost of not building ML?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,706 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Well , well, well... I certainly support this... no more interest in the usual welfare bonuses galore ... in other countries tries, looking to shore up public finances, they are cutting welfare and leaving workers alone. Will never happen here, bit one can dream...

    "However, the hands of the Department of Finance and the Department of Public Expenditure are likely to be strengthened by the threatening international situation, even if a feared decline in corporation tax revenues does not arrive in the coming months.

    “The likelihood of cost-of-living measures in this year’s budget is very remote . . . equally there will have to be a real consideration in relation to promised tax cuts,” said Mr Richmond, while noting that capital spending on vital infrastructural projects would be prioritised."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    You've got the wrong end of the stick there of your think this is social welfare cuts. Those "cost of living measures" were given to "workers" too (I know, you gave back the energy credits because you're not a scrounger...), and that those articles are actually saying that "workers" will be denied tax cuts to save money for big projects.

    Incidentally, the majority of the Social Welfare budget is spent on pensions. Maybe you hate your parents, but not everyone is you...

    There's no amount of "welfare" (why do you use the American term?) cuts that would make the difference between doing this and not doing it. Any situation where social welfare is under pressure is a situation where the capital programme has already been curtailed. When income falls in any organisation, uncommitted capital spending plans are always stopped to preserve cash for committed operational spending.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Not when he's talking mince about all the magic tram lines we could have if only MetroLink is scrapped



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭spillit67


    Again though, that's not the point. I don't agree with him on lots of things, it has nothing to do with his capacity or what he has done in politics.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 622 ✭✭✭Grassy Knoll


    Without getting into specifics, lets just say in terms of the engagement the project team (who hopefully will in 12 months or whatever need to start work on this) has had with the political system the sense has been one of detachment and not quite there in terms of the support that would be expected or necessary. The article, if you read it closely, is an outworking of that and sending a clear signal to the political side it needs to 'get on board'.

    Personally I support the project as transformative, while accepting it will in all likelihood cost more, overrun in terms of timescale and cause enormous disruption. I can live with that as I see huge long-term benefits. However, to a politician where the incentives are all short-run in nature there is little near-term upside. The term 'another children's hospital' is seared on the political mind, and remember this project will be a multiple of this.

    Just because something is in a PfG or the minister says something, or because we believe in the merits does unfortunately not mean it will automatically proceed. That is not to say it wont go ahead, but there are risks.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,822 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    The messaging I’m hearing from Sean about Metrolink in the article is that this project is like Ardnacrusha multiplied by 10 and the government are just seeing it, to quote Sean, as “a business as usual project, and it’s not.”



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,435 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    There's another SBP article on the same interview os Sweeney, which is focused on the PPP element of the scheme, essentially him telling them that once the tunnelling and concrete boxes have been done, they'll PPP the contract for everything to do with the rail system itself.

    Paywalled article here:

    It does close the interview with quote

    “The government, I’m not going to tell them how to do their job. But for MetroLink to go forward, the government needs to make an unambiguous commitment to it. That we are doing it, and we're going to expend x billion doing it, and it's going to take x years and we're starting the tender next year. Because that's our plan.”

    Which, again, is very positive to hear from the project chief.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Honestly if he manages to successfully bully the government into acting this way, I hope he has plans to enter elected office



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 213 ✭✭VeryOwl


    Which is brings us to one of Sweeney's more candid admissions: his concern about the lukewarm interest from the global contractor market. Despite MetroLink's scale, significance and budget, many world-class builders remain unconvinced - and with good reason.

    Ireland's record on delivering major capital projects is, at best, mixed. Years of political hesitation, timeline slippage, postponed announcements and even outright cancellations have undermined confidence. Metrolink has been "coming soon" for almost two decades. For international contractors weighing risk and opportunity, that kind of track record is a red flag.

    […]

    Sweeney said he was a “little bit surprised” by the Irish government’s approach to the MetroLink project, which diverged from the level of political backing mega-projects got in Australia or New Zealand.“If it was really important to the premier [prime minister], it was made clear to the whole of government: remove the barriers. Make this happen. And there’s certainly not that sort of unilateral clearing of the barriers here,” he said.“These nation-building projects . . . basically they require someone, usually a prime minister or a premier, to say: ‘We’re doing it, and get out of the way’.”

    Sweeney's candour in calling out that the markets simply aren't convinced this project is going to happen and aren't queuing up to bid for it, and highlighting the underlying problem - a complete lack of political will - is a genuine positive step.

    The response to the challenge issued by Sweeney from Jack Chambers is lukewarm to say the least.

    But Chambers warned that the Metrolink project still hadn’t come fully through the planning system, and until it had, they could only discuss it in theory.“It has yet to come through the planning system. We are awaiting that decision and whenever it does that will inform the next steps for government about what’s possible and what the timelines would be. It has had a very circuitous route over the last number of years. The planning system has been a contributor,” Chambers said.

    Not exactly "we're doing it, and get out of the way".

    More than money, someone in the Government needs to grab this project and drag it forward or it won't happen.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭gjim


    a complete lack of political will

    I hear this repeated all the time but where is the evidence for this?

    Every single statement from the government ministers over the last 2 terms have been to re-iterate their commitment to the project. And this was in the face of a barrage of atrocious negative reporting about the project in the media - like the "paper of record" claiming it was going to cost 21B. It's part of the programme for government, there hasn't been a single suggestion that we should alter course at this stage.

    Even the fringe left/right politicians - who can normally be relied on to oppose everything - have not tried to use it to attack the government.

    Even in the face of economic uncertainty brought about by the orange man's tariffs, ministers have stated that the project will go ahead regardless.

    What would be convincing, some ALL CAPITAL TWEETS from the Taoiseach?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,146 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Does anyone know for sure — these cost estimates we keep getting for Metrolink, do they include the already sunk costs of the planning process?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Given that it is the biggest project in the history of the state in practicality, we don't hear much from government buildings about it. Since it entered the planning office the department is mute about it, as they feel that it is now out of their hands, when it isn't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭gjim


    I'm not sure what you're expecting? This is from last month:

    Metrolink is a “critically important” project and the Government will continue to develop it even if there are economic shocks from a EU-US trade war, the transport minister has said.

    Darragh O’Brien said he wants to see construction work begin on the Dublin Metro during this term of Government, which is due to last until 2029.

    “We’re at a very advanced stage with Metrolink. It’s a critically important project not just for the airport and North Dublin — but for the region and indeed nationally,” Mr O’Brien said.

    And the planning process is out of their hands. Ireland, like every other western country, moved to an independent planning process decades ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,460 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    If politicians were speaking about it now they would be accused of trying to influence or strong arm the planning process. Can't win



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Is there even a teaspoon of earth dug out of the ground yet? No? There's your evidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭JPup


    I think there has actually. As part of the preliminary works. Ground investigation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,706 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Spending millions preparing a tender to present to a shower of wasters , who likely will try abort the project... dodnt build it when it could have been for a pittance, in 2011 or 2012 or whenever MN had planning...

    You're forgetting the crash... that's interesting, borrowed tens of billions to squander ... imagine keeping irish tradesmen at home ajd building it, when tender prices would have been way lower... a mad concept...



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 13,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Now that's what I'd call an informed rant if ever I saw one.

    We weren't running our own economy when MN got canned, the Trioka were. We were borrowing money just to pay the salaries of teachers, nurses, Gardai etc. We were never going to be able to fund such an infrastructural megaproject at that time.

    Also you don't present a tender to the government. When it finally gets through planning the government will sign off on the project then being put out to tender. This will be possible to do quite quickly because the tender docs are already being prepared.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    Why would they be digging earth when the planning has not gone through yet? Wasting money and doing something that hasn't even got through the planning is pointless. Work has to be done in a logical order.

    Digging a big hole up by the M50 at Ballymun isn't going to speed things up!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭spillit67


    It just wasn't going to happen in 2011, people need to accept it and stop screaming about them being the smartest person in the room.

    I would be critical of the bailout programmes and lack of foresight by those who lent to us (and the continent as a whole) which would have opened up opportunities here, but that's a separate discussion.

    The "missed opportunity" in Ireland was the late 1990s and early 2000s when the Luas was built.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,706 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Absolute lie and misinformation... they provided the money and some opinions. They Absolutely and categorically, we're not dictating and micromanaging to us, about how we went about the tax increases and spending decreases... which is a shame, because if they had control and the decisions weren't all based on politically the easiest choice, this country would be far the better for it...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,706 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Well... lets be realistic if these morons can it again. It's not a 3 year delay, its a ten year delay at extremely elevated cost for lesser project's... that's the reality ... then again with the amount of apologists on this forum about the farcical state of infrastructure here and the endless delays, its quite clear many of you are in the system...



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Plus continuing to extend DART to the likes of Drogheda, etc. during that period.

    FYI the IMF and Troika now recognise that they were wrong in forcing all projects like Metro North to be cancelled then. They now recognise that during such times, you should continue to invest in infrastructure, that cancelling projects like this does long term damage that lasts far beyond the recessionary period as we have all seen and felt. No comfort to us now.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,951 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    They absolutely were micromanaging the budget and in no universe would have allowed that level of capital expenditure.

    They were wrong, but it was the reality.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 13,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    We were borrowing from the Troika to pay public sector salaries and social welfare and other day to day expenses. They absolutely did have a list of conditions before they handed over the money which included austerity measures. When they came in the States budget deficit was €16.7bn. There was no way Ireland could built MN under those conditions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭spillit67


    What are you talking about 3 year delays?

    Are you talking about now or the crash period?

    Again, you aren't the smartest person in the room by just f'ing and blinding & pivoting the subject when it doesn't suit.

    There is no chance the State was building to that level in the crash. The only shot was segmented infrastructure debt (which would have been the way to go if you were designing such a programme again) which wasn't happening.

    There is lots to be critical of but I can't believe people keep bringing up those years again and again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,349 ✭✭✭hold my beer




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,706 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    There were austerity measures agreed, there had to be.. .. they could have axed welfare more or the obscene waste in government spending, a once in several decade opportunity, of course they didn't. And cpuod have built metro north with a fraction of the savings... ,

    Given the rampant excuses here, I can't wait to see how if dublin metro is cancelled you all manage to see the positives in it... lol



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The social welfare budget massively increased due to the massive increase in unemployment! And of course at the same time we had a massive decrease in income tax due to the same unemployment (plus many people who kept their jobs took significant pay cuts, thus less income tax there too).

    Do you think people people who were working hard for years, paying income tax and PRSI for years, should have been left destitute and starving on the street after they lost their jobs through no fault of their own?!



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