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Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Please keep sectarian politics out of this discussion. If the “cross border rail” you’re referring to is the suggested Mullingar-Portadown link, then it’s actually the NI section that is more likely to go ahead without the “south” rather than the other way around. Portadown-Armagh is a much more viable proposition than Mullingar-Cavan, let alone Mullingar-Clones.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 276 ✭✭PlatformNine


    I am looking at an older tender that may have been updated since, but the wording is:

    Initial traction power will be Diesel Battery Hybrid (and option to use existing 1.5 kV DC OHLE is desirable) with the train designed to transition to a net zero carbon operation during its life by the removal of the diesel power generation for replacement with OHLE power supply equipment. (source)

    It doesn't strictly say 1.5kV is required, although the document doesn't really specify which OHLE voltage is required for the tender, whether that be 25kV, 1.5kV, or both. My interpretation of the tender was that they were primarily looking for future 25 kV capability as that is what NIR is planning on using for electrification and from my understanding what IE is planning to use for their electrified IC network.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Hmmm, yes, that's exactly what the Irish tender says. I was wondering where I got the idea that was more than “nice to have”, then I see that on the UK side, the tender notice ( Enterprise Fleet Replacement Project [Notice] ) it says something slightly different:

    Initial traction power will be Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) Battery Electric (using the existing 1.5 kV DC OHLE) with the train designed to transition to a net zero carbon operation during its life by the removal of the diesel power generation for replacement with dual OHLE power supply equipment.

    Note the additional word “Battery”, and that 1500 V operation was considered a baseline requirement. That said, I believe the Irish notice on etenders is the definitive one, as IÉ seem to be running the tendering.

    I agree that future mainline electrification will be 25 kV AC, but in order to run on OHLE into Dublin on the Northern Line, the Enterprise trains will have to be capable of 1500 V DC operation too.

    I expect that all other inter-city electric stock in the Republic will be dual OHLE because otherwise the fleet will be split between “into Connolly” (AC and DC) and “into Heuston” (AC only) sets, as only Heuston will have a dedicated inter-city tracks that could be electrified at 25 kV AC; all approaches to Connolly are going to be 1500 V DC after DART+. That kind of split creates operational problems where none should really exist, so my own thoughts are that in addition to all stock being dual OHLE, the Greater Dublin Area will also be exclusively 1500 V on all tracks so that any OHLE train can be routed anywhere around Dublin under its own power.

    One quirk about the Enterprise call for tenders is that the top speed is requested as “minimum 180 km/h”, while the long-term plan for this line is 200 km/h within the lifetime of these trains. Fortunately, most manufacturers’ products fall into categories with maximum speeds of 160, 200 or 250 km/h, so we’ll probably end up with a 200 km/h trainset anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    Stupid question, but how would this be implemented? Does the voltage change at a certain point on the line (e.g. Drogheda on the northern line) and 1500V DC-only stock can't pass that point?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, DC only stock like the new DART+ trains wouldn't be able to operate North of Drogheda (well they could if they used batteries, but not on the OHLE). But this shouldn't be a big deal as beyond Drogheda you are basically travelling too far for a commuter type train anyway.

    Normally this would work by having a Neutral section of OHLE between the 1500V DC sections and the 25kV AC sections. The momentum of the train would carry it through the Neutral section and it would switch from DC to AC (or vice versa).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭Economics101


    I should think that there are 2 possibilities: (a) a little North of the Boyne viaduct, where trains could transition on the go, or (b) a little North of Dundalk if Irish Rail want to use DART+ units for all Northern Line Commuter services.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Pretty much that.

    Theoretically, the 1500 V DC DART trains could be adapted to be dual voltage too, but this makes each one more expensive and also a little less efficient. Those differences add up when you’ve got so many DART trains, running so many journeys every day, so in practice I’d expect that they won’t do this, and instead any “far commuter” services to be run using dual-voltage EMUs that work at 25 kV outside the “DART area” and 1500 V inside.

    Making longer-distance trains dual-voltage has the same penalty as making DARTs dual voltage, but those trains make fewer journeys, don’t stop and start as often and are generally heavier anyway, so the additional “cost” is outweighed by the benefit of being able to run on both OHLE systems.

    Having to deal with two electrification systems is down to history: back in the late 1970s, DART was specified as 1500 V DC, not 25 kV AC - both were an option at the time, but 1500 V had some very clear cost advantages for an urban railway with the technology of the time. As there’s so little electrified rail in Ireland, the possibility of replacing the existing DART 1500 V system with 25 kV AC was considered during the early stages of DART+, but it was ruled out because it would have nearly doubled the cost of the electrification project, and worse, it would have needed the current DART service to shut down entirely for months while the existing line was swapped over.

    Basically, adding extra a small extra cost to every long-distance train for the next century or so was cheaper than the enormous cost and disruption of ripping out the current DART and re-electrifying it as 25 kV.

    Ireland will not be unique in having to use dual mode trains, as there’s several countries in Europe that have two electrification systems within their borders, and of course, rail travel between countries with different systems is commonplace:

    image.png

    The reason supporting two voltage standards isn’t such a big deal is because modern trains use AC induction motors, where the speed of the motor is determined by the frequency of the voltage applied to it. That means that no matter what’s on the overhead line, you’ll need electronics in the train to convert it into something useful: whether you provide two converters or one doesn’t change things hugely. Modern signalling systems have protocols for handling OHLE voltage changes safely.

    25 kV at 50 Hz is the preferred system for new rail electrification across the EU, which is why it’s the most likely for us to adopt for mainline use.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Thinking about it a bit more, perhaps it does make sense to run DC as far as Dundalk and the border. Not so much for fleet reasons, but more to simplify maintenance etc.

    Basically NIR maintain the 25kV AC section as far as the border and IR maintain just a 1,500v DC section from the border south, rather then IR having to maintain both AC and DC sections on the Northern line, might make things simpler for them.

    I'm not sure if any of the above actually makes sense, cost of maintaining AC versus DC, relationships with NIR, etc. probably all play into it, but just a thought.

    Having said that, even if they did do DC as far Dundalk, I'd say any future long distance commuter train would still be dual mode AC/DC . If it wasn't it would just be stuck on this DC Northern line and couldn't operate on the other lines which get AC electrification. I don't think IR would want such a small niche fleet like that any more. They would likely prefer long distance commuter trains that can be used around the network. Look at how the ICR's are used all over the network.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    North of Drogheda will be 25kV as is the plan with west of Hazelhatch so a dual powered fleet is needed.

    The internal DC bus on most modern trains is around 1500v so dual voltage is fairly straightforward



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Yep. From Drogheda to the border (44 km) is nearly as far as Drogheda to Connolly (48 km), so it’s not even like it’d only be a short extension. 1500 V is a lot more expensive to run over longer distances, as you need more substations to counteract the more significant drop from using a lower voltage. I also think there’s no chance that DART services would ever run north of Drogheda - 48 km is already a long way out to bring a suburban railway, even in cities that are much bigger than Dublin.

    But, as it’s only 44 km, Drogheda-border is a good candidate for the first mainline stretch to be electrified.

    There’s a lot to be said for standardising: the ICRs have given IÉ huge flexibility in introducing new services and meeting demand on existing lines, and I suspect that this is what they will want to continue during and after electrification. Enterprise used to be “special” because of signalling differences with NIR, but now that both sides of the border are being upgraded to ETCS, even that difference is going away. It’s even possible that, if it works out well in service, whatever is chosen for the Dublin-Belfast route will become the standard electric multiple unit across the Republic.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 231 ✭✭Bsharp


    The Drogheda to border section is a great candidate for the first rollout of 25kv AC with enterprise planned to be multi-modal. Means the service isn't dependent on the electrification being in place which mitigates against risk. They should start asap.

    Translink already has their feasibility study and outline business case for Belfast to the Border.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 276 ✭✭PlatformNine


    That makes sense, it would probably just work better to make all the approaches into Dublin 1.5kV. I wonder if they go down the route of dual voltage fleet, if they will consider using 1.5kV for the other cities electrificaiton. I don't believe they have made a final choice for CACR yet, but I imagine whatever they pick there will be what they eventually use in Limerick and potentially Galway(I'm thinking of Galway-Athenry and -Tuam) as it could allow for greater standardisation between the commuter fleets.

    I wonder if the line speed of 180km/h minimum is a relic of pre-AISRR and how long the Enterprise search has been going. I am not really sure what plans looked like pre-AISRR, its just a thought that popped into my head. That said I can't imagine post-AISRR that they would ever pick anything not capable of at least 200km/h. Also like you say 180km/h just seems to be an uncommon max speed, the only unit I know is the Class 93.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 276 ✭✭PlatformNine


    In addition to this, would 1.5kV DC also struggle with the power needed for higher speeds? It is a limitation AISRR mentions, although I am not sure to what extend 1.5kV DC would actually affect top speeds.



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