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2024 will certainly be the hottest year on record. We're shooting past 1.5c ahead of schedule

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    Do you have any evidence that you can link to showing exactly who is offering 200 billion (euros?) of “private” investment into Ireland



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,133 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Reality doesn`t get much of a look-in in your fantasy world does it ?

    Are Eirgrid, the Commission for Regulation of Utilities and the company Ryan`s then department commissioed to do an energy security review all shills for the fossil fuel industry ?

    All of them told Ryan LNG was needed for energy security ?

    Even after he was forced to recognise the realaty he was still trying to save face waffling that we would not need it because we would run the national grid off batteries, (not just every day nonsense, demented nonsense), or that we would have energy security importing electricity, (generated btw from nuclear, or that "neutral emissions" generator the Drax wood burning plant), from our next door neighbours who along with being net importers of electricity themselves are no longer an E.U. member state.

    Anyone with even basic primary school mathematics can see that this green wind/hydrogen offshore proposal is a road to economic suicide. It may have been a long term project for greens, but thankfully greens are not pulling the government strings now and hopefully will never get within a country mile of doing so in the future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,133 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Charlie has no problem with private investors wasting €200 Bn of their money however they wish.

    What he does have a problem with is that nobody other than the consumer will be paying that €200 Billion bill that will only provide 50% of our projected demand while you and a few like you are pissing down the back of peoples necks trying to convince them it is rainwater and that it is somehow a great deal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    It sounds like this 200 billion was invented out of thin air

    That’s about two years worth of total Irish FDI

    I don’t understand which foreigners are proposing to invest this? All of the offshore wind majors are teetering on bankruptcy lately and had to cut projects everywhere

    Secondly let’s say someone does invest 200bn into Irish wind, whom the hell will be repaying this investment plus interest but the Irish taxpayers and companies?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,133 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    The €200 Billion is based on the U.K. 2019 capital cost per GW for offshore wind farms plus the increase in costs since and a very conservative figure for hydrogen production for this 37GW offshore plan. That 2050 plan for €200 billion would provide just 50% of our projected consumer demand/

    These wind companies aren`t charities or fools. They have pulled out of contracts they signed just a few years ago until they were offered a better rate when their costs went through the roof. They are on state guaranteed contracts for 15 years and know exactly how much the need to make to cover their capital costs, plus their operating cost and a profit on top. As you say, nobody other than the consumer is going to be funding that. For here Ryan even put a cherry on top for them in that he gave them a guarantee that we would take whatever they generate even if we neither needed or wanted it.

    That 37 GW will generate 7.4GW of electricity for the consumers, for which they will be paying €27 Billion per GW plus a profit margin, plus the cost of transmission upgrades etc. over 15 years. It`s financially bat **** crazy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    That’s what I thought if someone is planning dropping 200bn on producing highly randomly variable wind based electricity which is very expensive to store and export (unlike let’s say Shell exporting gas and paying the high corporate rate because oil/gas is excluded from 15% rate)

    They wouldn’t be doing that out of goodness of their hearts but to fleece Irish taxpayers and companies



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,704 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The amount of half baked figures being thrown around here is the only thing that's 'batshit crazy'

    The projected costs are doubled, and the projected output from the wind is halved and then you simply declare half the energy is going to h2 production.

    The actual plan is for 100bn in investment over 25 years to deliver more than enough electricity to cover Irelands energy needs even including transport and heating, the surplus energy can then be used to make h2 for backup and for export.

    Irelands annual total energy demand is about 120Twh per year, 37gw offshore wind with a 45% capacity factor generates 170Twh of energy a year. And that doesn't include the existing onshore wind and solar and micro generation as pretty much every home and business will have solar panels by 2050

    https://www.powermag.com/irelands-energy-strategy-embraces-offshore-wind/

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,133 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    More nonsense.

    I have showed you what the capital cost for 37GW of offshore wind is and you have not come up with a single figure to contest that. U.K. offshore wind has an average capacity factor under 40%, for here my figures were based on 40% not half that as you are disingenuously claiming.

    The 2050 plan is for half that 37GW for consumer supply and half for hydrogen production to be used for electricity generation when wind falls of to next to nothing when fossil fuels are out of the mix, Not for export as you claim, but I`ll come back to that.

    For someone who is attempting to cast aspirations on my figures where are you getting yours from ?

    The €100 Bn. you are claiming for this 2050 plan was a figure Ryan gave off the top of his head, not just for the capital cost of offshore and hydrogen production, but also the storage and distribution of hydrogen with no breakdown as to what the cost of each different aspect would be. And neither have any green supporters, yourself included, done anything other than run away from when asked. On your mention of "batshit crazy" where did you come up with the figure that our annual demand is 120 TWh a year ?

    Eirgrid`s "Tomorrow`s Energy Scenarios" analysis has our present demand at 33 TWh and projected to rise to between 73 TWh and 86 TWh by 2050. Our current maximum demand is now over 6 GW. That will become somewhere between 13.27GW and 15.63GW by 2050. Roughly 14.5GW.

    Our installed onshore wind capacity Dec 2024 was 4.836GW. With a capacity factor of 28% that is 1.354GW. Installed solar capacity Dec 2023 was 0.7GW. With a capacity factor of 11% that is 0..077GW. A total for wind and solar of 1.431GW, but lets for handiness sake call it 1.5GW. The 2050 offshore wind/hydrogen would provide 7.4GW. That means that for offshore, onshore and solar a grand total of 8.9GW. That leaves a hole for our 2050 needs of 5.6GW. More or less our total maximum demand now. So after all the spend that the consumer is on the hook for onshore, solar, plus the proposed €200 Billion for offshore and hydrogen, how, and for what further costs to the consumer, is this green dream of wind and solar going to cost to provide that further required 5.6GW by 2050 ?

    As to the 50/50 split of offshore generation of 37GW between consumer demand and hydrogen production, I have always said that I understood what the reasoning behind it was. What I could not understand was the numerically illiteracy of whoever came up with it.

    The reasoning is that when wind drops off to nothing we would burn hydrogen to fill the gap. The numerical illiteracy is that it would not just double the strike price to the consumer plus all the storage costs, desalination capital and operation costs, distribution costs etc on top, but converting electricity to hydrogen and then back to electricity has a capacity factor of ~40% so that 7.4GW you start out with becomes 3GW. Not much use when demand is at 14.5GW when wind has dropped off the scale. Especially where the strike price of electricity from hydrogen to the consumer would see a massive increase.

    As plans go it would be laughable if it wasn`t one that would bankrupt the state and everyone living in it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    Can you link to concrete details of this plan you speak of?

    The link provided goes to an AI generated press release

    Who exactly is planning to spend 100 billion in Ireland? And how are they planning to make this back plus interest and over what timeframe out of Irish suckers



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,542 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Lots of people DO have viable alternatives though. The Census data was crystal clear that lots of people are using cars for short journeys of 2-4km that could easily be walked or cycled.

    Oh no, not RENAMED bus routes! Are you OK? Is there some PTSD there from you having to come with the renaming?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,643 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    We need gas as a backup when the wind and solar fall short- I’m pretty sure you’ve agreed with this on previous threads, in fact I’m 100% sure you have.

    Gas provides the backup.

    We depend on the Moffat lines in real time to keep the lights on.

    We need a storage of gas which LNG would provide.

    Thank god (or whatever) greens and ER have gone so that that blocker to the LNG terminal has been removed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,542 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Yes, think of how much easier the journeys of the rest will be when those taking short journeys get out of their cars.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,704 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    image.png

    The capacity factor for the most modern wind installations are closer to 50% than 40% with Hywind Scotland having a 5 year average capacity factor of about 54%

    image.png

    No it isn't. The plan is to have hydrogen use up the energy when there is a surplus of wind generation so it can be used as a storage medium for when there is a deficit

    Currently surplus wind is curtailed (ie, the turbines are switched off and no energy is generated) this is one of the factors that affect the capacity factor of 40-55%) Part of the renewable energy strategy is to use that wind power, to reduce curtailment, by storing that energy either in pumped hydro, or grid scale batteries, or interconnectors, or to generate hydrogen for strategic storage or for export.

    Your figures are based on the incorrect assumption that we're going to allocate half of the turbines to produce hydrogen all of the time. Thats not the plan at all. The plan is to take the extra energy, during times of extra supply, and use that to generate hydrogen for storage. The logic being, that the Round trip efficiency of storing this energy in Hydrogen doesn't matter because the energy would simply have been wasted if the plant was curtailed as it currently is now.

    Instead of thinking that we need 2 times the number of generators to meet peak demand if half of them are making hydrogen all of the time, (which is mad, but you are the only person who thinks we would do this), instead, realise that peak demand is only for a few hours during the day, and at night time, when it's still pretty windy, we could be using all of that energy to charge up batteries (including all of the electric vehicles that will be coming on stream) generate hydrogen, pump water up hills etc etc and all that stored energy then gets used to smooth out the peak demand and to trade internationally over the EU interconnectors.

    image.png

    Maximum demand is currently supplied by having peaker power plants that turn on when they are needed to meet the peak demand. Over the next 30 years, these will be replaced by batteries (quicker than you think) and those batteries will be charged up on the cheapest electricity when it is available, and discharged when the demand is exceeding the real time supply.

    Surely that would require thousands of batteries?
    Yes, but consider that there will be millions of batteries connected to the grid by 2050, Every BEV and every household, commercial premesis, industral premises, state facility will likely have batteries installed to take advantage of dynamic energy pricing

    We might need zero grid scale dedicated batteries to balance the daily peak demand in the grid.

    Here's what the Irish energy generation will look like in 2050 if we meet our targets

    Breakdown:

    1. Onshore Wind Energy:
      • Installed Capacity: 8 GW
      • Capacity Factor: 35% (0.35)
      • Annual Energy:8 GW×0.35×24 hours/day×365 days/year=24,528 GWh/year8 \, \text{GW} \times 0.35 \times 24 \, \text{hours/day} \times 365 \, \text{days/year} = 24,528 \, \text{GWh/year}8GW×0.35×24hours/day×365days/year=24,528GWh/year
    2. Offshore Wind Energy:
      • Installed Capacity: 37 GW
      • Capacity Factor: 50% (0.5)
      • Annual Energy:37 GW×0.5×24 hours/day×365 days/year=161,370 GWh/year37 \, \text{GW} \times 0.5 \times 24 \, \text{hours/day} \times 365 \, \text{days/year} = 161,370 \, \text{GWh/year}37GW×0.5×24hours/day×365days/year=161,370GWh/year
    3. Solar Energy:
      • Installed Capacity: 10 GW
      • Capacity Factor: 15% (0.15)
      • Annual Energy:10 GW×0.15×24 hours/day×365 days/year=13,140 GWh/year10 \, \text{GW} \times 0.15 \times 24 \, \text{hours/day} \times 365 \, \text{days/year} = 13,140 \, \text{GWh/year}10GW×0.15×24hours/day×365days/year=13,140GWh/year

    Total:

    24,528 GWh/year+161,370 GWh/year+13,140 GWh/year=199,728 GWh/year24,528 \, \text{GWh/year} + 161,370 \, \text{GWh/year} + 13,140 \, \text{GWh/year} = 199,728 \, \text{GWh/year}24,528GWh/year+161,370GWh/year+13,140GWh/year=199,728GWh/year

    You admitted above that we will only actually need about 86000GWh per year by 2050, so we'll be producing double the energy that we actually need even allowing for capicity factor and electrifying everything. Some of this energy can be used to create hydrogen that can be stored for strategic reserves in to cover us if there is a prolonged shortage of wind in the winter
    The prevailence of Dunkelflaute conditions around the Irish coast is about 3%, so we would need enough storage to cover those scenarios (also taking into account interconnectors and all of the various storage systems we will have installed over the next 25 years)

    Even considering the poor round trip efficiency of green hydrogen, it would take nowhere near half of that surplus to cover our strategic storage needs.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,704 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The plan is to auction off the licenses in stages. Its not going to be one single 'hundred billion euro contract'

    The actual capital cost of the investments will be paid by the companies who win the auctions, and they will be given a 'strike price' (basically a contract for difference) where the government will underwrite a minimum cost per MWh for a fixed period of time (eg, if the wholesale price for electricity falls below the strike price for a period of time, the PSO levy will pay the difference)

    https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/6b24a-minister-ryan-launches-future-framework-for-offshore-renewable-energy/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

    https://assets.gov.ie/291905/4ecb292f-990f-4317-8f67-ca9bc2f9b8f8.pdf

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,704 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I have agreed that we currently need Gas, because we have not yet built the renewable grid infrastructure yet.

    The requirement for gas backup decline as we build the renewable energy infrastructure and storage. This is why I oppose new LNG infrastructure, and instead we should be using those resources to fast track grid modernisation, grid scale storage, offshore wind installations and speeding up the electricity interconnectors to Europe.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    Take a wild guess where the government gets its money from

    No one is gonna spend hundreds of billions and not expect to make that money back plus interest from them Irish population



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,643 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    ok so you agree we need gas backup but your happy enough that we don't have an emergency storage of gas on the island of Ireland in case anything were to happen?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,704 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Yeah, of course, but it's not like they're getting money for nothing. They're bidding to supply us with electricity at a certain price, and the strike price is what they get for that electricity over the defined period of the contract.

    They bid what they think they can make a reasonable profit on, and the government accepts the lowest bid from qualifying tenders (those who can realistically fulfil those contracts)

    Eg, the last strike in the last auction was 10c per unit of electricity. So if the price falls below this, the wind generator is paid the difference, but also, if the price goes above 10c per unit, the generator doesn't get to keep that money.

    I would actually prefer to get rid of these RESS auctions all together and just use government funding to build the wind turbines and and keep them in public ownership and control, but I have a feeling lots of skeptics might not be willing to accept the risk.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,704 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    We can't magic one into existence now can we. So rather than spending money now to provide new infrastructure that we only need until other new infrastructure is ready, why not just built the infrastructure that we actually want in the long term.

    Forget gas storage or LNG, focus on finishing the interconnectors and focus on improving efficiency and getting people off gas and onto modern efficient heating systems.
    the hundreds of millions it costs to build fossil fuel infrastructure would be much better spent removing the need for it entirely.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,643 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    We are building the renewable infrastructure at the moment.

    The vast majority of houses will require gas to heat them as heat pumps will not work efficiently unless the house is A rated which people do not have the money to pay for.

    We will need a backup supply of gas for when its overcast and calm until Green Hydrogen becomes a thing, when that will happen we don't really know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,704 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    You don't need an 'A rated' house to use a heat pump.

    The biggest reason gas is cheaper than heat pumps, is because gas is cheaper than electricity. If we stopped subsidising Fossil fuels, and subsidised electricity instead, then heat pumps immediately win in the vast majority of use cases.

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-ffes/fossilfuelsubsidies2022/keyfindings

    4.7 billion euros would have put a lot of insulation into people's homes, and upgraded a lot of people to much cheaper and more sustainable heating systems.

    If your house is very poorly insulated, and you think being warm is sitting in front of a radiator thats on all waking hours and sleeping with an electric blanket at night, then the problem is your house is woefully substandard and you should upgrade it

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,643 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    What if people don't have the money to upgrade their "woefully substandard house"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    Heh some people can’t even get on the housing ladder because new homes with the new standards have been pushed into half a million plus range by all the regulations



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,704 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The state offer subsidies and even pay for the full costs of upgrades for people under certain circumstances.

    Like i said 4.7 billion euros a year would so a lot of these upgrades

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,704 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The building standards aren't the driver of unaffordable house prices

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,133 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    You have accused me of manipulating data and capacity factors, yet last time you were on here you gave a figure for our annual consumption of electricity over 500% incorrect and nothing to admit you were incorrect.

    Now you are back misrepresenting capacity factors on offshore wind, and figures for onshore wind and solar capacity factors from your imagination with nothing to back them up.

    Hywind Scotland is a floating windfarm with an installed capacity of 30MW from 5 turbines. It has no relevance to offshore here where all turbines of this 37 GW plan are fixed, and even Eamon Ryan has admitted that floating wind farms are not technically possible off the west coast for at least a few decades if ever.

    Hywind Scotland was commissioned in 2017 and in 2023 all the turbines had to be towed to Norway due to "heavy maintenance" being required that was unsafe to do in situ. The current U.K. CfD price for floating wind is €233.58/MW. 50% higher than the highest priced nuclear, Hinkley Point C, that those pushing wind could find of €154.41/MW.

    So no, the capacity factor of fixed turbine Scottish wind farms is not 54%.

    The Crown Estate U.K. Offshore Wind Report 2023 Page 14 shows that for the years 2010 -2023 for just one year, 2021, did the capacity factor even reach 40%. Even including 2021 the five year average (2019 - 2023) was 34%.

    Neither is the onshore capacity factor for Ireland 35%. " Over the year the capacity factor of wind farms was 27%" (Eirgrid Annual Renewables Constraint and Curtailments Report 2022)

    Neither is the solar capacity factor for solar 15%. TU Dublin/Technological University of Ireland. Economic and Environmental Performance Analysis. Has the capacity factor of solar here at 11%. And that does not take into account that when we have had long extended period in Winter when the capacity of wind has dropped to 6% and lower, solar is not much better than 5%.

    All the capacity factors I posted in my calculations were higher than any of those I have shown as reality from verifiable sources rather than the fantasy figure you have posted. So again where are you going to get the 5.6GW, (which would be even higher had I used verifiable capacity factors rather than the over generous ones I did), hole in our requirements for 2050 and how much will it cost ?

    On batteries supplying the maximum grid demand rather than peaker plants, another fantasy thrown in without as an extra cost to the consumer without a single figure. The largest battery storage plant in Ireland is the 150/300MWh that cost €75 million one in Aghada Cork. How much would it cost to build and stock one with batteries that would power the grid, even now for a single day when wind drops off the scale with our maximum demand of 6GW, never mind when demand is 14.5GW. It`s your proposal so I assume you have a figure, or is it just another of your fantasy hopiums you cannot put a price too ?

    Btw, you have been shown the 2050 37GW offshore plan numerous times on other threads that generation is a 50/50 split for domestic consumption and hydrogen production and have continually ignored it. You will most likely ignore the 2024 Climate Action Plan that states "The 2024 Climate Action Plan commits to achieving at least 5GW of installed offshore wind capacity by 2030. A further 2GW is earmarked for the production of green hydrogen." So do not pretend you haven`t been shown that and that and taking extra energy during times of extra supply for producing green hydrogen is nothing other than something similar to your TWh consumption and your capacity factors. Off the top of your head attempting to make your figures fit your imaginary scenario



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 839 ✭✭✭poop emoji


    They are one of the causes

    It costs more to build these homes and the cost is passed onto buyers plus profit margin

    … like unreliable wind backed by gas has led to highest electricity prices in world

    Once again the state ultimately extracts this money from us taxpayers



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Could someone drum it into the thick heads at the CSO that not taxing something is not equivalent to subsidising it?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,643 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    No the state coffers inflates the cost of getting work done in your house by a contractor.



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