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Ireland's Refugee Policy cont. Please read OP before posting

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Comments

  • #4022
    suvigirl
    Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123016827#Comment_123016827

    Our courts will not allow laws that are unconstitutional. No law will be passed that will detain people indefinitely without trial.

    Now, you may not like that and keep rolling out the same line, but that is the fact.

    By not pandering to reading links, you have merely just shown that you have no interest in the actual laws and facts surrounding these issues and you just repeat the same nonsense arguments, which are never going to happen.



  • #4023
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92,394 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    I still think the people should have voted on joining the EU Pact which at present we are in but still taking too many in, not coping, services stretched too far, there has to be a limit, we are a small island, the farthest west, how is this Migration Pact benefiting Ireland so far?



  • #4024
    suvigirl
    Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017506#Comment_123017506

    It hasn't started yet. Application is in 2026.



  • #4025
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 29,746 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017487#Comment_123017487

    As you just said above, laws and indeed the constitution can be changed if the desire is there.

    It could actually be a very good idea to put this to the people to debate and decide properly on as it is a national issue and crisis that is getting worse by the year. It would certainly be more valuable than the "feelz" and distraction referenda that we've had recently.

    As I said to your compatriot above, the realities of this situation may be unpalatable to some, but that doesn't change the facts - no one is forcing these migrants to come here, no one is forcing them to stay, and no law or amendment is beyond change, repeal or replacement if the political will is there.

    That will incidentally is rapidly gaining traction among our European neighbours so it's highly likely that changes will likewise follow here sooner or later, either from local politicians or imposed by said European neighbours.

    Again, this may be unpalatable for some but that doesn't change the facts.



  • #4026
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 29,746 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017494#Comment_123017494

    I know I said I wouldn't, but for the last time...

    How is it imprisonment, internment or detained if the "inmates" are free to leave (albeit perhaps not to their preferred destination) at any point?

    Do you deny that these people are here voluntarily and that they can depart again anytime they wish?

    Again, your position makes no sense. It's emotive fantasy that just doesn't hold up to any sort of scrutiny.



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  • #4027
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92,394 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Ireland is failing, well considering accommodation shortage for everyone is at record high, homelessness is at record high, how can we just keep taking in, there has to be a cut off point, it is just not sustainable

    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2025/01/03/state-has-failed-to-plan-for-surge-of-asylum-seeker-arrivals-as-new-eu-legal-obligation-approaches/



  • #4028
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 23,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017540#Comment_123017540

    As you just said above, laws and indeed the constitution can be changed if the desire is there.

    So, I ask again, you’re happy to make internment legal?

    You know internment was used as a weapon on this island before? I am absolutely and totally opposed to internment.


    Let’s talk about facts. We can imprison asylum seekers, fact. Our system is woefully inadequate to deal with the influx, fact. We don’t need to change the law to speed up processing, fact.

    The problem isn’t the exist, decent laws. It’s the inability of the Irish government to organise a piss up in a brewery.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #4029
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 23,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017607#Comment_123017607

    Failing because of gross mismanagement by a government that has, mostly, just been reelected.

    It’s beyond farce.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #4030
    alias no.9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,489 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    The indefinite bit is a problem alright, give them two weeks to make their case and if they've failed to establish their case for asylum, send them on their way.



  • #4031
    csirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭csirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017494#Comment_123017494

    I dont agree with detention wthout due process, but I think its a stretch to say its uncinstitutional considering it has been frequently used in recent history.

    As we've seen with Enoch Burke (dont agree with him BTW), contempt laws currently allow people to be detained indefinately without trial.

    We had internment without trial at various times during the troubles.



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  • #4032
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 29,746 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017683#Comment_123017683

    Again you are ignoring the reality - how is it internment or imprisonment if these migrants can leave any time they wish?

    That's the facts. No one is forcing them to stay here if they don't want to. They can go home, to where they arrived from, or anywhere else that'll have them at any point.

    I do however wholly agree with you on the incompetence of the current/outgoing Government and specifically the incumbent parties. They are the reason we are in this mess to begin with, and I likewise have no faith that they (without intervention from either the electorate or more likely the EU) have any ability to resolve it.



  • #4033
    suvigirl
    Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017583#Comment_123017583

    'my position ' is not my position, as I have already pointed out and you seem to ignore, that is the position of our superior courts, who do not allow unconstitutional laws.

    Fundamental rights under our constitution are not absolute. Our courts have found numerous unenumerated rights, not explicitly written in the constitution, but implied. So as they are not in the constitution, they cannot be changed.

    My posts contain absolute facts, posters describing a country where human rights are ignored, where our courts do not uphold our constitutional rights, are the ones fantasising I'm afraid.



  • #4034
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 23,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017735#Comment_123017735

    locking people in a camp is internment. If their only option is to be returned to a county they have fled in fear, it isn’t actually an option. It’s absolutely internment.

    I’ve talked to people who were interned. It’s horrific.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #4035
    suvigirl
    Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017733#Comment_123017733

    Contempt of court is legal, he is keeping himself in prison because of his refusal to purge his contempt.

    When exactly did the Republic engage internment?



  • #4036
    csirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭csirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017942#Comment_123017942

    Irish Government kept people in internment in the Curragh Camp and a wing of Mountjoy Prison at various times when the troubles flared up - uo to the 60s, possibly later.. Also used the Curragh for crash landed or shipwrecked Germans during WW2.



  • #4037
    Blut2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭Blut2


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017494#Comment_123017494

    How exactly is it detaining people when the people in question are free to leave whenever they want? Just because they're not free to go to one specific area of the world (in this case, Ireland) does not mean they're detained - the whole world is their oyster.

    Its not unconstitutional to only offer arrivals tented accomodation in an isolated area, which is exactly what we should be doing instead of paying for incredibly expensive hotel and apartment accomodation for them during a housing crisis.



  • #4038
    suvigirl
    Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123018087#Comment_123018087

    No, there was no internment in the Republic, edit, yes sorry in the 50s for IRA members, wouldn't happen now.

    WW2 German soldiers, were held in the country but not exactly how you describe,

    German internees were allowed to attend classes at University College Dublin and a further three at the College of Technology, Bolton Street. Throughout their education, the students were housed in a number of private residential houses in areas such as Glenageary, Mount Merrion, Merrion Road, Rathmines, Lower Baggot Street and Sandymount. This was all under the condition that the internees would not ‘seek or accept any assistance’ to escape or ‘engage in any material activity or activities contrary to the interests of Eire’.

    They worked, some even married Irish women.

    https://historyireland.com/german-internees-curragh-camp/



  • #4039
    suvigirl
    Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123018130#Comment_123018130

    Because they are not free in such a scenario.

    I for one would not be happy about encampments of people in isolated areas, I prefer to know where these people are.



  • #4040
    csirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭csirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123018186#Comment_123018186

    Check your history. Internment was heavily used during the Border Campaign which ended in 1962.

    Curragh Camp and Mountjoy housed internees. Unlike the Germans, they werent allowed out for any reason. Internees included teenagers "at risk" of becoming involved due to where they lived or who they were related to.



  • #4041
    suvigirl
    Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123018215#Comment_123018215

    It was used for 3 years at the end of the 1950s, for suspected IRA members. It didn't last long and it most certainly would not be allowed today.



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  • #4042
    csirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭csirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123018268#Comment_123018268

    Whether or not it were to be used again would be a political decision - the point Im trying to make is that there is no legal/constitutional reason why it cant be used. (BTW I dont agree with using it)



  • #4043
    1800_Ladladlad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,477 ✭✭✭1800_Ladladlad


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123015075#Comment_123015075

    All I have ….About 1,100 deportation orders were issued in the first 6 months of 2024, and only 65 enforced deportations. The numbers for the remainder of 2023 are unknown, but only 30 deportations were enforced in the. first 6 months in that year, with 761 being issued in total.

    Untitled Image

    Also worth noting aswell that zero families have been deported since before the covid, yet there's been an increase in that group traveling to Ireland in order to apply for IP.

    The Department of Justice has no data regarding the efficiency of the “self-deportation” system nor does it have any grasp of “exit checks”. People are coming and going as they please, even when they're present themselves at Immigration using a false document, they're allowed to try again and use their legit documents, like the Albanian lad who flew from Barcelona on a false Polish passport with his facilitator ('girlfriend')

    People-smuggling gangs have been targeting Dublin as a backdoor to the UK as a ‘VIP’ alternative to small boats across the UK channel. There were 35 arrested across Ireland & Britain relating to people smuggling last month. An Iranian male who traveled with 3 other non-EU nationals traveled from Barcelona to Dublin using a fake Ukrainian passport and was arrested in Belfast when trying to enter GB. There are many arrests like this. Last month as well, an Irish national was charged with smuggling 14 Albanian nationals into Scotland from the North of Ireland in a livestock lorry.



  • #4044
    suvigirl
    Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123018341#Comment_123018341

    There absolutely is, legal and constitutional reasons it cannot be used. Detention without trial is not legal in this country. There have been numerous cases in the superior courts on the subject, I will have a look for some links tomorrow, on mobile at the moment.

    I imagine, there could be an argument made for it, if the time period was short, but it would have to be extremely shorter than assessment is currently taking.



  • #4045
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 29,746 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017928#Comment_123017928

    You can keep repeating the same tired rhetoric again and again. It won't make it any more true and you're certainly not convincing me - especially as I've already addressed these points several times above!

    Instead, can you just answer the simple question that I've put to you several times now…

    • If someone is free to leave at any time, how is it internment, detaining them, or imprisoning them?

    And for bonus points….

    • Do you accept that these people are here voluntarily, and equally free to leave the State voluntarily?


  • #4046
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 29,746 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017931#Comment_123017931

    But that's not true either is it? In most cases these people are "fleeing" places like the UK, France, or other Eurpean countries, or have passed through one or several of these to get here.

    The truth is that like suvigirl, the argument you're making just doesn't hold up when subjected to even the mildest scrutiny - but that's why most of the campaign has been based on emotive manipulation - these poor people with sad stories need our help and so on!

    Except that's NOT what the majority of them want. They want economic opportunity and a leg-up in what they see as their new lives, and at OUR expense while requiring OUR needs to be relegated or ignored in the process.

    I'm not buying it, sorry!



  • #4047
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 23,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123018515#Comment_123018515

    when did I mention “these poor people with their sad stories”? Never.

    I gave you a list of facts. None of which you’ve refuted and you’re claiming I’m emotive. Give me a break. All I want to do is focus on real solutions, not BS that can’t happen.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #4048
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92,394 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017693#Comment_123017693

    I do agree about the government, I am still in shock they go back in with McEntee and Harris especially topping on first count, O Gorman barely scraped in



  • #4049
    suvigirl
    Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123018484#Comment_123018484

    Its not rhetoric, it's facts. Whether you like them or not.

    If someone is claiming asylum, because they have a 'well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion', and you cannot seek the protection of your country. (Which are the reasons for claiming asylum) Then it is a breach of their fundamental human rights to detain them, if their only avenue to leave is to leave the state.

    Not to mention that they cannot apply for asylum in another country once they have applied here.

    It's clear that you cannot grasp just how our fundamental human rights, our constitutional rights and our rights under the ECHR, are the most important rights, and our courts will uphold them.



  • #4050
    suvigirl
    Site Banned Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123018515#Comment_123018515

    The truth is that like suvigirl, the argument you're making just doesn't hold up when subjected to even the mildest scrutiny - but that's why most of the campaign has been based on emotive manipulation - these poor people with sad stories need our help and so on!

    And yet, not one single poster has ever said those words. Not one.

    You are being given the stark realities of the laws around asylum claims, you just keep repeating 'solutions' that cannot happen.



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  • #4051
    Leg End Reject
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 22,087 Mod ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    Mod: Seriously folks, Enoch Burke and the interment of Germans during WW2 and of IRA prisoners have absolutely nothing to do with Ireland's refugee policy.

    https://forumofgames.com/



This discussion has been closed.
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