Ireland's Refugee Policy cont. Please read OP before posting

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123018848#Comment_123018848

Where did I say that specific posters had said this? Maybe re-read what I posted.

You still haven't answered the questions I put to you - just repeating the same (false) notion that laws cannot be changed, removed or ignored if the situation calls for it and the political will/mandate is there. We've seen it happen during the Financial Crisis and Covid as I already pointed out. We've seen Planning laws ignored for this issue. We've seen numerous referenda over the lifetime of the last Governments which proposed to (or did) change the Consititution.

Yet despite these historical and indisputable facts, you continue to push this nonsense idea that the law is inviolable which just isn't the case. I can only assume that your continued ignoring of this and the questions I've asked you are because you're incapable of actually putting together a logical argument that stands up to even the most minimal scrutiny.

So be it. I won't be wasting any more time with your posts.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123018913#Comment_123018913

I never suggested that laws cannot be changed, they are regularly changed, amended and repealed.

What law cannot be however is repugnant to the constitution. Our courts will strike down any law which is unconstitutional. The right to liberty is protected by our constitution. Also, by the ECHR. Our courts will follow precedent, their own and other common law jurisdictions.

Detaining people without trial, forcing asylum seekers to leave the country instead, breaches their fundamental human rights. Their right to liberty, their right to claim asylum. No court in thai country or indeed, Europe, will allow that to happen.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123018972#Comment_123018972

With enough precedent of abuse of the asylum system the laws can and should be amended.

This is the point you refuse to acknowledge.

The majority of asylum claims are fraudulent. The majority of those people never leave the country.

That is a broken system.

You are defending a broken system that is to the detriment of everyone in the state.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019054#Comment_123019054

I'm not defending any system. I have said over and over again that assessments need to be much much quicker and those refused permission to stay need to leave the country, either themselves or if necessary by forced deportation.

Laws can be repealed and amended, what they cannot be is repugnant to the constitution. Which law do you think should be changed?

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123018683#Comment_123018683

You actually just repeat the same boring old line over and over nothing new , employ more staff to speed up decisions. This does nothing but increase the numbers of mostly low income workers . The rising numbers of asylum seekers coming will continue and will create a pull factor as most get to stay .

What I find bizarre is that an asylum seeker can marry and does not need a Freedom to Marry cert !

Got any other solution?

Hungry Burger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019180#Comment_123019180

It’s not a solution at all. “Employ more staff” means more people on the asylum racket payroll and would actually encourage more people to come here to seek asylum as it would be another pull factor to have quicker applications, but as we all know, keep em coming is the motto for these folks anyway.

Hungry Burger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123017931#Comment_123017931

Someone better get onto the Dane’s quick. I’d say they’d be scarlet when they find out they’ve been infringing human rights by “interning” people!

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019566#Comment_123019566

They already know. Numerous reports have been compiled by various human rights organisations and EU committees.

Denmark is also a country that will strip its own native citizens of their citizenship, not something many Irish people would be happy with, I'm sure.

Denmark is definitely not a system to aspire to, unless you believe in concentration camps.

You can treat people like human beings, with respect and dignity, and still deal with asylum applications.

https://www.coe.int/en/web/commissioner/country-work/denmark

https://cphpost.dk/2023-11-16/life-in-denmark/europes-leading-human-rights-organisation-criticizes-danish-immigration-system/

https://www.politico.eu/article/denmark-refugee-law-asylum-migration-un-eu-international-protection/

https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6069/Worse-than-the-treatment-of-criminals%3A-Degrading-treatment-and-punishment-of-aliens-in-Danish-Foreigners-Centre-Ellebaek

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019180#Comment_123019180

I repeat the same “boring old line” because i believe it’s the only solution. No one has offered an alternative, that can actually be implemented.

You want to stop residence by marriage as well now? Jesus wept.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019566#Comment_123019566

are they though? What conditions are the asylum applicants held under?

Edit: I did the research for you because it’s that easy. The asylum seekers are free to come and go as they please form the centres. They’re just in the arsehole of nowhere.

So the Danish model that people want includes free movement. Do you still all want it? I’m happy enough with it. If their people are treated better in the centres. Because it sounds like they aren’t.

http://refugees.dk/en/facts/the-asylum-procedure-in-denmark/asylum-centers-and-deportation-centers/

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019600#Comment_123019600

I dream of a system like Denmark's every single day. The important fact is it works, keeps away chancers and saves them from economic ruin. In fact I want their original planned system which was held back by archaic human rights laws.

I'd also love a government that take the approach of eastern European countries.

Laws can be changed and amended, constitutions can be changed by referendums. Give the people their say. This current profit before people scam needs to stop but it won't. We go from one shady government to the next and have done for decades. 250BN in debt if you're lucky enough to have grandkids they will curse this generation.

creeper1

Denmark is a country with great protection for workers (Danes). They have high salaries and if they lose their job the benefits system is extremely generous paying almost their own full salary.

If they done something as stupid as throwing their doors wide open they'd be absolutely inundated with the third world.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out

creeper1

Irish politicians are followers not leaders.

Ultimately the zeitgeist is at long last changing in Germany.

They've endured attacks on their young women at new year eve.

They've endured terrorist attacks.

They've endured trucks being driven into crowds at Christmas markets and they've had enough.

The stakes are high here.

The current politicians in Germany will leave an opening for AFD unless they come around.

It's not even out of the question Germany itself will exit the EU because of this issue.

Irish politicians will change their tune in due course and those speeches able "legal and moral obligations" will be something in the past

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019838#Comment_123019838

”Give the people their say”, that’s what elections are for. We just had one and returned mostly the same government.

If you genuinely “dream of a system like Denmark every single day”, I worry about you.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019849#Comment_123019849

They did do something as stupid as opening their doors and deeply regretted it. Instead of the establishment going to war with the "muh far right" they listened and changed.

We are even more vulnerable. 250BN debt we're struggling to reduce. Housing amongst many other social crisis. We're in an extremely vulnerable position if another recession hits and we're burdened with thousands of refugees, asylum seekers, IPA's and low skilled immigrants.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019931#Comment_123019931

Are you worried about the people of Denmark and the citizens of many other EU countries taking a sensible approach? I'm not. I look at them with massive respect. As I always say we'll be paddy last. There's a reason we are crippled with debt more then the average EU country. We're idiots. Always have been and always will. No amount of back patting will change this.

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019638#Comment_123019638

No need to weep you obviously have not understood that without a Freedom to Marry cert an asylum seeker could be already married in his home country.I thought that was basic understanding.

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019849#Comment_123019849

They only see cheap labour for unviable businesses here. Thats if they do actually take up employment

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019838#Comment_123019838

archaic human rights laws.

If there is one thing for sure, modern human rights are most definitely not 'archaic considering they came about after WW2, they are not even 100 years in the making.

Irish courts began to recognise unenumerated rights in the 1960s, without them there would be no contraception, no divorce, homosexuality would still be illegal. Not to mention the many other rights that have been recognised, the right to earn a living, the right to privacy, etc etc

Where would we be without human rights? Ridiculous to call them archaic, when they have been fundamental in the modern world.

You can have a successful asylum system in place without the need to breach anyone's human rights.

Also, unenumerated rights are not written in the constitution, they are implied and recognised by the courts, they cannot be changed in the constitution therefore.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123019941#Comment_123019941

I don’t understand how this is a response to my post.

The people of Ireland were asked to vote, they returned almost the same government. So you got what you want.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123020026#Comment_123020026

for once, can you explain your point instead of being obtuse and making a guessing game out of it?

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123020078#Comment_123020078

Are you being deliberate .I explained it !! This applies to any non national marrying here .

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123020084#Comment_123020084

Ok. You explained it poorly due to lack of punctuation and terrible grammar. But I get you.

They should also need a “freedom to marry” cert. It’s bizarre they don’t. Happy?

rgossip30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123020114#Comment_123020114

Finally the penny drops congrats . I am sorry I omitted YOU from the sentence .Edited thanks for noting it .

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123020199#Comment_123020199

Look, I’m not going to get into an argument about. But the penny didn’t drop. I had to re read what you posted about 15 times to glean the meaning. You could do everyone a favour with grammar, punctuation and using capital letters. It’s very difficult to read.

rgossip30

I am sorry that you did not understand.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123020076#Comment_123020076

The people of Denmark didn't vote in majority for far right nutjobs who in Ireland are probably the only one's who'd follow Denmark. The centrist and left leaning parties listened to the people. They didn't ignore the issue like here. We're basically in a Kang and kodus situation. The EU have us by the balls thanks to our crippling debt. They don't have the same leverage over others bar Greece but even our debt per capita is far higher than Greece.

Like I said we'll be paddy last to change in Europe and we'll suffer heavily for it.

I will also add that following modern day human rights can cripple an economy economically. Therefore they are archaic in my book. So is a democracy controlled by the courts.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123020411#Comment_123020411

I’m curious, is healthy economy more important than basic human rights to you?

Describing them as archaic is a bit weird. “Archaic” human rights, to me, would be a lack of human rights. Like we had before the 20th century.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123020471#Comment_123020471

We can have a healthy economy, a healthy country and respectable human rights but unfortunately this government have enabled a free for all where we are now in danger.

You do realise the more we take the more will come and it'll never end until we're crippled economically. Russia are weaponizing immigration to help re-rise the far right in Europe and we're playing right into their hands. Sadly there are still people who can't see the bigger picture but more are waking up by the day. Just look at the likes ratio in this thread alone between the for and against. Look at national polls. And this is Ireland nevermind other more self aware EU nations.

The wheels of change are irreversible in motion. I just pray the change happens without the far right dominating. That's why Denmark are geniuses. They changed course without letting genuine bad people steer the ship.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123020922#Comment_123020922

Multiple times now I’ve said I’m in favour of the Danish model. We can do it without breaking the law, because people aren’t interned.

So you either want the Danish model or you want internment of asylum seekers, it’s logical which one we should go for. We should improve on the conditions they offer, based on some of the complaints by amnesty international