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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Sure is there any reason to not do another feasibility study? Just keep kicking the can down the road until the next recession, and then there's an excuse to pull the plug on the project.



  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Bsharp


    Transport doesn't win elections at the end of the day. There's a good chance the can will be kicked, equally the delivery process is so convoluted these days that a kicking isn't even needed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,161 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    It's not part of DART+ so why discuss it here?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Expecting a result on Dart SW soon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Lots of interesting things from the transport debate 3 days ago. I wanted to summarise some key points that caught my attention.

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_transport_and_communications/2024-10-09/

    • D+ West to start constructions in 2026 (p.5) (this is the first time I have seen a year given)
    • New DART carriages are be delivered by the end of the month, start services in Jan. 2026 (p.9)
    • Part of the second order of DART carriages will be used in expanding DART services to wicklow town (p.16, p.27)
    • ABP rejecting planning for the Maynooth depot is not a major setback. There current infrastructure can support the first three orders. Plan resubmission to ABP within 6 months (p.21)
    • He also addressed JRs, (this is more clear in the video from 1:33:50) it sounds like there are NO JRs but there are some issues to be worked out. With that said I don't know if that refers to the depot specifcially or D+ west as a whole. (p.21)
    • If Howth shuttle service happens it would not be until early 2030s (p.26)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Don't we already know that there's three judicial reviews happening?

    I can't see services starting in Jan 2026. Just look how long the new B2 cars took to get certified and into service.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Emer Currie: "There's no judicial review, at this moment in time?"

    Jim Meade: "We're still in that process, but no, there's a couple of issues going on, we're dealing with those, it's not formalised yet."

    Can the judicial reviews be dropped, if the parties get paid enough?



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Oh yes, that's not a problem, just send in a letter saying that it's been resolved to all parties satisfaction and it's instantly dropped, the courts close the file on it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭PlatformNine


    so I know there was a lot of talk here about JRs as well as a few mentions on social media, but I think this is the only mention of it from IE. it could mean that the JRs were just rumours or it could also be the groups filing them them wanted to work with IE before elevating it to a JR. Mr Meade could have also just been referring to the depot, not D+ west as a whole. Eitherway at some level it means there are no JRs.

    As for the new 22K carriages there was 17 months between delivery and start of service, while if the new Alstom rolling stock is delivered this month and enters service in January 2026 it will have been 15 months. Im not sure if they will need after delivery, but considering the 22K carriages were not stand alone sets and had to be installed into existing sets, 2 months shorter for the new vehicles seems possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Bear in mind the new sets will need to be "assembled", and due to their walk through nature some of the bogeys are attached between 2 carriages.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭DoctorPan


    There's a difference in complexacity between APOM process for a brand new fleet and inserting a new design into a mid life fleet and reformation of the fleet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,218 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu




  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    The JRs are up on the courts website. We don't have access to the details, but it'd be incredibly unusual if it wasn't, to be honest.

    They have to be raised in the 8 weeks, so even if they are under heavy negotiation, the people bringing them will still file. Perhaps it'll go all the way to court, perhaps it'll be settled next week, but if they didn't file, they'd lose all negotiation power.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    It's moreso that it's not a simple process compared to slotting in some new carriages.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,446 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    In that exchange with Emer Currie, they are explicitly clear that

    • the rejection of the depot at Maynooth is not delaying anything
    • the judicical reviews are not delaying anything

    So I guess the question is, why is construction not starting until 2026?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,352 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Probably because it still has to be tendered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,815 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Assuming The JRs are settled early, enabling works will start in 2025, the works that IÉ can do internally with in house skillets, including some track lowers under historic bridges.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭PlatformNine


    I looked through the debate report again and like others have said it sounds like tendering/procurement hasn't started, and unfortunately it's just a long process.

    "We have just got permission from An Bord Pleanála for the DART+ West to Maynooth. We now have to go into the procurement phase of that. We are one year and a half away from putting shovels in the ground, whereas the timeframe is less than that for the new trains." (p.21)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭PlatformNine


    A massive point I completely missed that was pointed out to me on another thread:

    • "We are hoping to place the third order this year for another 100 cars but we can just call that down and we do not have to go into a procurement process each time we want new trains." (p.12)

    this means that by the end of the year we could be guarenteed 57 of the potential 150 sets from the framework.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭DoctorPan


    It's far simpler for a clean slate APOM than inserting new designs into existing fleet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,128 ✭✭✭SeanW


    If the Judicial Reviews just relate to the level crossing closures and replacement bridges, can IE just go ahead with the less controversial aspects such as electrification?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,446 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Yes. Unless the High Court explicitly directs a stoppage, they can proceed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭thomasj




  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Interesting.

    Looks like the first of the trains are ready.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,218 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    where's the factory?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,206 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Poland I'm pretty certain; they're not actually being built in Alstom UK in Derby.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Yep, it's in Poland (in Wroclaw, I believe). It will be driven across Europe to France and then by boat to Rosslare.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,258 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Katovice, Poland



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,648 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    There are no suitable places to put these trains where they can be serviced etc. Everything is on the roof so no way maintenance can be done in our current depots.

    2026 is hilarious. Not a chance in hell.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 732 ✭✭✭ricimaki


    Interesting that it's Rosslare, and not Dublin Port - same as they did when delivering the Luas trams.

    On the Irish side, where are they actually moved from the truck to the rail line?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    They are going to Inchicore for the initial phase of assembly and then will go out on testing. There has been a huge amount of work on the site moving things around and redoing a lot of the track to accommodate these.

    They absolutely will be able to maintain them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Of course there is. They are hardly going to bring the trains in with nowhere to commission them. They've a purpose built facility in Inchicore.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Inchicore most likely. They already have a converted wagon to move them on the rails, before the bogeys are fitted to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,648 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    My mate is an electrical engineer in IE and according to him there's no way in hell 2026 is happening. They need to put gear in and tracks in clontarf depot which will be 50 mil or so and is years off.

    No overhead lines in Inchicore are there? Can only move on dart lines.

    Obviously I could be just making sh*t up but I don't really do that on this site. Hopefully he's wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Where's he based? Tell him to have a look around Inchicore next time he's there, and have a chat to the engineers working on the project. Drivers are also already in training for the new units.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,218 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Seems mad to drive them to France rather than ship them from Poland, they have ports in Poland, right?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Economics101


    The units are assembled in Katowice which is a long way from the nearest Polish port (Gdansk or possibly Szczecin), it may be easier to ship them from France - a much shorter sea journey then from the Baltic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭PlatformNine


    The first deliveries will be mostly BEMU(13/18 and 19/19 sets), battery electric units, so they wont need over head lines, they will of course need charging facilities but thats a lot easier to install than an entire electrified line. Also there shouldn't be capacity issues, as the current official statement from IE is that the current supporting infrastructure can support the first three orders. It hasn't been confirmed but if I had to take a guess that is assuming the 8100s stay in service along side the third order, even if it is just briefly to allow the 8100s to be seamlessly decomissioned.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Sorry yes, Alstom have another facility in Wroclaw that I was thinking of



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,258 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Likely coming via Dunkirk makes sense as it minimises the miles on the road with an abnormal load and avoids crossing the UK

    IE owns Rosslare Port so has no cost space etc to marshal stuff before onwards presumably outside peak hours to Dublin

    Early 2026 does seem ambitious given the long list of 'new' things never done before in Ireland. Its not just the train but also the ETCS signalling and the GSM-R north of Malahide



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Fleet renewal is independent of any of the DART+ line projects. As far as I'm aware, ETCS signalling is already in place on the existing DART tracks. The first train orders from Alstom were to always intended to replace the 8100-series EMUs, which are life-expired at this point.

    It might seem odd to bring so many BEMUs in first when there's no "need" for them, but this is a very new product, and IÉ are one of the first adopters, so running these trains in an area where there's always OHLE to fall back on allows the technology to be extensively tested in revenue service without risk of service disruption.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,258 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    DART+ is an overall funding envelope for all the projects (including the 41 ICR coaches) It does not include funding to replace the 8100 sets, yup separate begging effort has started to get that funded.

    Only reason we have ETCS, is the CRR was pushing for a proper train safety system and with the order of the new trains a decision was forced. While ETCS has been installed (well almost complete) not one fare paying passenger has travelled on a train under ETCS supervision and won't until early 2026.

    The battery train is a engineering solution for the lack of political support and the broken planning system, a really bad trade off but its a best we can do given the mess with large infrastructure in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭OisinCooke


    Any idea how they’ll get from Rosslare to Inchicore…? Surely towing them all the way on accommodation bogies is either dangerous or very fuel inefficient due to the speed restrictions of the bogies?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    They'll be on the back of a truck all the way to Inchicore afaik



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    Yes, they will be trucked all the way to Inchicore.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,258 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Trucked up the N11/M11, around the M50, Naas Rd, then reverse up Inchicore Terrace, doable but can't see it being a sustainable solution for 750 coaches



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    I assume the long-term plan would be delivery to the Dart+ Depot in Maynooth. Initial 3 orders (at least) would need to go to Inchicore still, however.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 115 ✭✭PlatformNine


    The first few orders are mostly meant to operate on anything but the current services. The first two are mostly BMU (13/18 and 19/19 sets) and are intended to increase frequency on exisitng services ahead of full electrification, including Drogheda and Wicklow(only to Wicklow Town if I remember right) services, while also replacing 22K/ICR sets operating HH services so they can be sent elsewhere. Of course the regular EMUs will be operating on the existing route and maybe a few BEMUs will, but the BEMUs are not meant to operate on existing DART services.

    My current theory is that the third order of 20 units (which should be placed before the end of the year) will be to replace the 8100s(18 equivalent units). Or at least that is planned not necessarily what will happen. However if IE are feeling lucky they can try and wait until later orders however I think they would be insane to attempt that.

    It might not explicitly state so, but the DART+ programme 100% assumed the replacement of the now 40 year old 8100 sets. IE is very open about some amount of 150 unit framework being used to replace the 8100s.

    Also while I do agree that our planning system for vital infrastructure is broken, in general I don't think the idea of a battery trian as a stop-gap is a bad idea. Even with a better planning system there was always the possibility of electrification not being ready in time for the new sets, and I do think it would be good for them to plan for a worst case scenario. I am however worried we will see the sets pushed to their limit, as I don't believe they can travel much more than Malahide-Drogheda and back on a full charge.

    Ignoring that the BEMU are mostly a result of how the programme has been progressing, there are still many advantages to having some BEMUs in the fleet. If they decide to keep the batteries in the sets, they can use them for other long-distance commuters when D+ electrification is complete like Dundalk or Mullingar. Or if they don't they could likely be repurposed for the 41 new ICR cars(if compatible) or other future hybrid/battery sets.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    @PlatformNine - I think the current status of the DART+ line projects will mean that fleet replacement happens sooner than the third tranche of trains from Alstom: the way the schedules are looking, there will be a fleet of new trains commissioned by the end of 2026 with no electrified lines to run them on.

    If the line works aren't getting started until 2026, which looks very likely, I can see the first BEMU trains joining the new EMUs to gradually replace the 8100s on the existing DART lines. By the time the service extensions are ready (2028?), the later orders of mostly EMUs will be arriving, so those would take over the core DART network, and the BEMUs would cascade to the outer services, and also to Cork commuter, which (fingers crossed!) would be starting its own electrification programme by then.

    IÉ put out a call for tenders last year for options to life-extend the 8100s out to 2032. I don't know what kind of response they got, but my gut feeling is that they were told it would be far cheaper to just buy new trains.. after 40 years of service, the 8100s owe us nothing by now, we should let them retire while they're still running safely.

    DART+ Fleet is the only part of this project that didn't need to touch the planning system (new depots were all included in the line projects); it's no surprise that its progress has been far smoother than the rest of DART+…



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  • Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭OisinCooke


    Anyone know if any of the 8520s or 8600s will be cascaded to Cork or will they even be using wires down there…? I’d heard they mightn’t be, so is it likely that there’ll be a brand new order for Cork…? (Will they be painted red and white…!!)



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