Agreed, but IE, TII and NTA should have had a Northern Line 4 tracking draft project prepared for many years, so that least they could get moving if funds became available. To me the real scandal is why 4-tracking was not in the DART+ Northern Programme from the start, and even if it got dropped at least the transport operators could say "I told you so" when the inevitable acute congestion arises.
Including quad tracking in dart+ could have added a billion to headline costs. Politicians are simple creatures, they react emotionally to headline figures.
The recent timetable chaos in IÉ isn't surprising to IÉ. They knew it wasn't doable with current infrastructure but doing it none the less served as a demonstration of the need for quad tracking to those in power
They would still have needed funding to prepare the options for the project - that has only been provided via the EU recently.
I absolutely agree that DART+ North and additional track capacity should have been one project, but again this is all dependent on funding and what is being made available by government.
The good thing is that the timetable issues have put the lack of capacity to the fore in terms of the travelling public and politicians.
Those projects are fairly advanced though in terms of what they can do.
They are also already funded.
What I think is happening here is that Irish Rail are using the recent publicity on the timetables to look for a slice of the Apple money. Election szn.
I’d prefer DART Underground but I’m fairly sure the NTA are hostile to it and we won’t get movement on that until DART+.
To be fair the 4 tracking feasibility study was awarded funding last year by the EU and started earlier this year.
Jim Meade was at the Oireachtas Transport Committee yesterday and was asked when there would be an update, and he stated that the study was nearing completion, and he expected that it could be published early next year.
That's where this is coming from.
i know money wasn't always available, but at the very minimum they should have been pushing the government to sterilise the land so it couldn't be built on.
Even that would cost money. Denying planning permission to someone can be an expensive process.
Irish Rail is a government operation, they are told to tow the line and stick with the political goals of the day. You stay in line to get the money, go off script you won't be the CEO for much longer
Don't think it's started as there was a tender out for it in August. They did a high level study for it in 2012 and it was also looked at as part of DART+ Coastal North as part of a feasibility study. So IE must have a fair idea of what's possible already.
Well then he’s not told the Committee the truth as what I’ve posted above is what he said there yesterday.
Sure is there any reason to not do another feasibility study? Just keep kicking the can down the road until the next recession, and then there's an excuse to pull the plug on the project.
Transport doesn't win elections at the end of the day. There's a good chance the can will be kicked, equally the delivery process is so convoluted these days that a kicking isn't even needed.
It's not part of DART+ so why discuss it here?
Expecting a result on Dart SW soon.
Lots of interesting things from the transport debate 3 days ago. I wanted to summarise some key points that caught my attention.
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_transport_and_communications/2024-10-09/
Don't we already know that there's three judicial reviews happening?
I can't see services starting in Jan 2026. Just look how long the new B2 cars took to get certified and into service.
Emer Currie: "There's no judicial review, at this moment in time?"
Jim Meade: "We're still in that process, but no, there's a couple of issues going on, we're dealing with those, it's not formalised yet."
Can the judicial reviews be dropped, if the parties get paid enough?
Oh yes, that's not a problem, just send in a letter saying that it's been resolved to all parties satisfaction and it's instantly dropped, the courts close the file on it.
so I know there was a lot of talk here about JRs as well as a few mentions on social media, but I think this is the only mention of it from IE. it could mean that the JRs were just rumours or it could also be the groups filing them them wanted to work with IE before elevating it to a JR. Mr Meade could have also just been referring to the depot, not D+ west as a whole. Eitherway at some level it means there are no JRs.
As for the new 22K carriages there was 17 months between delivery and start of service, while if the new Alstom rolling stock is delivered this month and enters service in January 2026 it will have been 15 months. Im not sure if they will need after delivery, but considering the 22K carriages were not stand alone sets and had to be installed into existing sets, 2 months shorter for the new vehicles seems possible.
Bear in mind the new sets will need to be "assembled", and due to their walk through nature some of the bogeys are attached between 2 carriages.
There's a difference in complexacity between APOM process for a brand new fleet and inserting a new design into a mid life fleet and reformation of the fleet.
it's a train set, how hard can it be?
The JRs are up on the courts website. We don't have access to the details, but it'd be incredibly unusual if it wasn't, to be honest.
They have to be raised in the 8 weeks, so even if they are under heavy negotiation, the people bringing them will still file. Perhaps it'll go all the way to court, perhaps it'll be settled next week, but if they didn't file, they'd lose all negotiation power.
It's moreso that it's not a simple process compared to slotting in some new carriages.
In that exchange with Emer Currie, they are explicitly clear that
So I guess the question is, why is construction not starting until 2026?
Probably because it still has to be tendered.
Assuming The JRs are settled early, enabling works will start in 2025, the works that IÉ can do internally with in house skillets, including some track lowers under historic bridges.
I looked through the debate report again and like others have said it sounds like tendering/procurement hasn't started, and unfortunately it's just a long process.
"We have just got permission from An Bord Pleanála for the DART+ West to Maynooth. We now have to go into the procurement phase of that. We are one year and a half away from putting shovels in the ground, whereas the timeframe is less than that for the new trains." (p.21)
A massive point I completely missed that was pointed out to me on another thread:
this means that by the end of the year we could be guarenteed 57 of the potential 150 sets from the framework.
It's far simpler for a clean slate APOM than inserting new designs into existing fleet.
