Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

spillit67 · 24-09-2024 10:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122648816#Comment_122648816

So what you are saying is that the unity question will go backwards if SF themselves go back into opposition and remain on a similar %?

How does that look coming up to the thirtieth anniversary of the GFA?

What have they achieved?

In less than 10 years of “normalising” themselves into Irish politics FF had took a shredder to large chunks of the Treaty, establishing a separated position for Ireland in the world, electing a President and delivering a brand new Constitution. Whatever your opinion of what FF became, if you were a Republican in the 1930s you could be of no doubt that they were bringing forward the Republic.

Meanwhile in 26 years SF will have presided over a Nationalist vote that has barely moved. The micro victories cover this up but for how long once the micro victories stop?

In terms of politics in the South, SF in the south will have failed to have moved FG from power and will be responsible for allowing them to beat FF’s record of being in power. Will opposition parties stand around and allow SF to lead Ireland to have a Social Democrats in Sweden type run of single party presence in government?

FrancieBrady · 24-09-2024 10:59AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122648889#Comment_122648889

Switch and bait in action.
You said, and I quote:

I hear on the grapevine that SF are going to quietly drop the request for a border poll during the next government from their manifesto.

You have now 'switched' to

The clear and unequivocal promise to secure a border poll, north and south, has been quietly dropped.

Absolutely dis-ingenuous posting in a nutshell.

You then claimed it wasn't in the 2024 Westminster manifesto: (Bolding mine)

The discussion on constitutional change is everywhere. Partition has failed us all.
The Good Friday Agreement provides a peaceful and democratic pathway through a referendum process to achieve a new Ireland within the EU.
Constitutional change requires an Irish government to prepare for the future in a strategic and responsible fashion.This includes establishing a Citizen’s Assembly which creates an opportunity for people to engage in a dialogue addressing all the practical and positive possibilities that constitutional change can bring.
We need a process that facilitates generous engagement with those from all our communities on this island.
There is now a real opportunity to shape a more prosperous future in a stronger, better and fairer country.
An opportunity to create an efficient all-Ireland national health service, a sustainable housing system, affordable childcare, and a fair and just transition to a carbon neutral economy.
Resumption of full EU membership as a consequence of unity would hugely benefit the all-island economy.
Unity is central to building a modern, inclusive, accountable and fairer society and a country which can play its full part in the world.
The Irish and British governments must set a date for a referendum on Irish unity.
Now is the time to plan for the future.

Sinn Fein in the north cannot 'secure a referendum', it is not a function of a member party of the Executive.
In the south, as the Irish government they can as a co-guarantor of the GFA seek to ensure the mechanisms within that agreement are enacted, if those mechanisms are enacted, as MLMD said in the posted video a Border Poll will happen, so they can promise to 'secure a border poll'.

L1011 · 24-09-2024 12:43PM

They may have cottoned on to the polls - only selected two in Donegal, which was one of the only places three could possibly have worked.

blanch152 · 24-09-2024 01:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649316#Comment_122649316

They ran three before, and ended with one. It was an example of really bad vote management.

In 2016, they had over 27% of the vote, but only managed one seat, it was a pathetic performance.

https://www.electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2016&cons=68

blanch152 · 24-09-2024 01:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122648956#Comment_122648956

Huh?

I stand over my understanding that the Irish unity provisions in the SF manifesto for 2024/5 in the South will be diluted versus the 2020 manifesto, and that the promise to secure a border poll will be quietly dropped. I am certain over the dilution, at the moment the thinking is to give it less prominence in the manifesto, and I am nearly certain over the dropping of the promise. Look at my post 6781, that is my claim.

Now, it seems I am disingenuous by accepting your assurance that there wasn't a border poll call in the Westminster manifesto, because at no time did I look it up, at no time did I reference it directly (except in response to your posting about it)!!! You brought the Westminister manifesto into the discussion.

"The manifesto's of 2020 and the 2024 Westminster one, contain no 'requests for a BP'" is your words in post 6779. You are the one who claimed it wasn't in the Westminister manifesto, something you have now changed around completely!!!!!

The only mistake I have made here is to accept at face value, YOUR statement that it wasn't in the Westminister manifestos. I should have learned the lesson never to trust a single thing in your posts that hasn't been independently verified.

FrancieBrady · 24-09-2024 02:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122649687#Comment_122649687

I hear on the grapevine that SF are going to quietly drop the request for a border poll during the next government from their manifesto.

When it was pointed out there wasn't one in the 2020 manifesto, you switched it to

The clear and unequivocal promise to secure a border poll, north and south, has been quietly dropped.

Now it's

The Irish Unity provisions

I freely admit I missed it in the 2024 Westminster Manifesto and explained the difference:

SF in the north have no function in securing a BP and can only call for one.
SF as the Irish Government can secure a border poll by pressuring the British govt on fully enacting the GFA.

I get what you were trying to do, but had you researched properly you wouldn't have made the gaffs you have.

Danzy · 25-09-2024 07:41AM

https://twitter.com/SJTHolland/status/1838695681466245215

One for Blanch152 to smile about .

This absolute looper Holland doubling down on the tricolour being far right.

Sarah costs SF alot of votes

markodaly · 25-09-2024 07:48AM

Sarah is in the wrong party I think.

FrancieBrady · 25-09-2024 07:54AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122651780#Comment_122651780

blanch won't like that poster. '

'Do they not realise that the average Irish person is not interested in overblown nationalistic displays?'

Danzy · 25-09-2024 08:01AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122651809#Comment_122651809

Maybe Blanch is Sarah Holland.?

Though..

Blanch talks about running down SF but Sarah is putting in the work of taking on the voter base and beating them away.

FrancieBrady · 25-09-2024 08:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122651833#Comment_122651833

It should be abundantly clear by now that SF don't want support from racists and bigots even if it means not being in government.
There is nobody on the far-right claiming the SF leader as their 'parrot' as Gavin Pepper is doing.

Danzy · 25-09-2024 11:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122651877#Comment_122651877

FrancieBrady 9:13 am

It should be abundantly clear by now that SF don't want support from racists and bigots even if it means not being in government.
There is nobody on the far-right claiming the SF leader as their 'parrot' as Gavin Pepper is doing.

I would guess that 90% of the electorate don't even know who Gavin Pepper is.

I would guess that well over 90% know what the tricolour is and that well over 95% of them do not view it as a far right symbol, bar Sarah and people like her.

The bould Sarah herself has the colours on her own past election leaflets and has been photographed with the same flag.

This is the same whacko that called the Irish Independent political journalist a traditional Catholic fascist. Where do you even begin to understand the mindset that comes out with things like that?

The list is very long .

This is not small stuff. People like that love being in a small niche party and picking fights and knocking others, especially the hoi polloi, it is about feeling better and purer than others. She is a good person in a world of sin and she is going to root it all out, like a missionary in a heathen land.

Politics as therapy and role playing all in one.

Using her religious theme. Look at the Catholic Church and their collapse. Who'd have thunk that screaming and castigating your parishioners for years would finally just see them walking away.

Ye need to get rid of the Archbishops and Mother Superiors from the party that have flooded in in the last decade

When I was in SF, when it came to canvassing and leafletting the type of people who have "activist" or "anti imperialism" in their twitter bios were never to be seen but setting an agenda at the cumann , by God they were loud then, unless it was raining that evening and they stayed at home.

Pretending that everyone else is a racist is the sure fire path to SF in single digits, it's the tremendous work ethic of past electoral reps and candidates that got the party to the previous heights. Much of the people from then have been shoved aside or left

FrancieBrady · 25-09-2024 11:22AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122652502#Comment_122652502

Apparently I am in the pay of SF and I never heard of her until you posted.

Danzy · 25-09-2024 11:26AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122652513#Comment_122652513

Aengus would be the most prominent of that genre in the party now.

The people who say you are in the pay of SF are just Muppets

FrancieBrady · 25-09-2024 11:34AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122652537#Comment_122652537

The point is Danzy, you made the claim that she is losing SF support, if she isn't known even to me then her impact can't be all that huge.
Every party has similar people, let's not raise the spectre of some councilors and party mouthpieces across the political landscape.

Danzy · 25-09-2024 11:37AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122652557#Comment_122652557

She is not unique and I could list out dozens more like her at senior level in the party and across back office structure. Never mind ordinary members.

It's that she now represents what a lot of people, especially past voters and members view modern SF as.

People will say some random SF council candidate in Dublin was saying the tricolour is a fascist symbol and people will just nod their head, think that's new SF.

Danzy · 25-09-2024 11:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122652575#Comment_122652575

He is probably as bad. All in the one cumann as well.

FrancieBrady · 25-09-2024 11:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122652568#Comment_122652568

People out of whack with the party line exist in all parties. What is unusual here is people scouring X in order to find them in SF to try and say that the party believe such and such as a result. Saw it with immigration too.
It would be like me trying to say all in FG are like Hughie McElvaney locally, they aren't.

Repeat for every party in the Dáil.
Is that woman even an elected rep?

Danzy · 25-09-2024 11:54AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122652607#Comment_122652607

Look, I was a very active member for 20 years.

I don't know who Hughie Mc is, is he the fellow on about whacky backy?

Personally I think the party has developed such a gap between the base, the target demographic and those it picks for running or are higher party structure that it is at real risk of getting to the mid teens in the next few years.

Pity but mostly self inflicted.

FrancieBrady · 25-09-2024 12:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122652636#Comment_122652636

Back we go to the point made. It should be abundantly clear at this stage that SF are not targeting bigots and racists and the far right as their 'demographic'.
If they 'self inflict' something as a result, so be it, seems to be the party line.

*BTW Hughie was something this lady never was, i.e. major TV and newspaper fodder for quite a while just a few years back along with a few others caught with fingers in the till, so to speak. Curious and just a bit disbelieving that you 'never heard of him'

Danzy · 25-09-2024 12:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122652681#Comment_122652681

I genuinely have never heard of him. After googling him. Might recall it being mentioned on the news but still don't know him.

I never said SF were targeting the far right or racists or that they should. I think that is tangential to the problems SF is facing but use it as a way of avoiding problems, easier to pretend everyone is far right or a bigot.

I'm starting to think that a lot of people in the party are now living in an echo chamber, lifelong voters and the wider electorate and society are viewed as undeserving of the purity being offered where as the main concern is to be seen as solid and righteous to the party colleague and twitter friends.

Sure when anyone doesn't agree, questions, challenges bizarre behaviour, they must be far right.

FrancieBrady · 25-09-2024 12:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122652738#Comment_122652738

Who were you talking about here?

Personally I think the party has developed such a gap between the base, the target demographic

25-09-2024 01:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122652738#Comment_122652738

I've seen SF members very active on conspiracy theory Facebook groups in the past and having interactions with various leaders of those groups. We seen their support for Gemma, Girl Against Fluoride etc and Violet was famous amongst that cohort and I suspect was chosen for that reason.

There is an overlap between right and left in conspiracy groups and was wondering if you think they inadvertently lumbered themselves with supporters with far right views by targeting votes amongst the anti vaxers and anti Semitic conspiracy theorists?

Danzy · 25-09-2024 01:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122653027#Comment_122653027

I don't think they have, I'd say their support among that demographic would be rounding error small

Party that grew too quickly and joe has a very trendy middle class membership whose main support base is among working class people.

The left of today are unrecognisable from the left of 30 years ago, much of the public still views it as it was.

Lot of people who would now be in the Social Democrats and head the balls who are always on about building the socialist revolution.

FrancieBrady · 25-09-2024 01:58PM

Any chance @Danzy

Who were you talking about here?

Personally I think the party has developed such a gap between the base, the target demographic

Danzy · 25-09-2024 02:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122653178#Comment_122653178

Sorry.

The wider working class, especially the people who supported the Republican movement, the national army.

FrancieBrady · 25-09-2024 02:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122653207#Comment_122653207

And what are SF not doing for them? What are they not saying on behalf of these people if there is a 'gulf' developing?

26-09-2024 07:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122653207#Comment_122653207

Are you suggesting the traditional Republican base are the root of of the anti immigrant sentiment popular among SF supporters?

blanch152 · 26-09-2024 11:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122655247#Comment_122655247

That would seem the case.

blanch152 · 26-09-2024 11:43AM

https://www.rte.ie/news/budget-2025/2024/0926/1472068-sinn-fein-alternative-budget/

"On the cost of living, Sinn Féin said it would provide a €450 electricity credit to households, and not proceed with the Carbon Tax."

The Carbon Tax is recognised as necessary by FF, FG, Greens, Labour and SDs.

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/eu/carbon-taxes-europe-2024/

23 countries in Europe have carbon taxes. Carbon taxes are supported by socialist parties, as the polluter pays principle.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/dossiers/populists-power-challenge-ambitious-eu-climate-policy

Populist right-wing parties, which from many perspectives, Sinn Fein is indistinguishable are opposing carbon taxation all across Europe. This quote could be taken straight from the SF playbook:

"they have hampered climate policy at the local, regional, and national levels and their influence continues to grow. While climate action is still a priority for a majority of voters in Europe, populists try to exploit scepticism towards specific measures."

Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

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