M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Examiner letting their imaginations run wild

Evening Echo mopping up the mess

I guarantee this road won't be tolled in the end. Too divisive. It shouldn't be tolled. We have so much money coming in we have to stuff it in wealth funds.

Tolling is a money grab. Nothing more, nothing less. Look at the East Link in Dublin. A small bridge paid off 50 times over and the toll remains to screw as much money out of people as possible. It doesn't exist for any other reason.

Once the tolls go in they will never be removed in Ireland.

How is it divisive. Why shouldn't users pay to use it given how expensive it is. We have to pay for train tickets, much more in fact.

Eamon Ryan has delayed every road project that he could. With the Limer6Cork motorway he first of all was pushing the Easter option to like up with the Cork Dublin motorway. That was never a realistic runner to put a motorway through an area with a very low population density on a longer route compared the present design.

Then every other green add on had to be put on to it which has .ade the road extremely expensive.

The road will and should be tolled. I am not sure a distance used toll is a great idea it easier and cheaper to put a toll probably around Buttervent to catch⁹ through traffic mainly. It's a disgrace that the Dublin Waterford road is not tolled.

Yes tolls are a form of tax, that is not a reason for them not to exist.

As much as I dislike the GP tolls were there ever before them

I be surprised it's about 80 KM of motorway. It's not long enough to split. I say it another Green tactic to delay the project

The local councillor in question is a senior member of the same political party as the current Minister for Transport, and in any case planning has nothing to do with how the contract will be split up for tendering. Splitting an 80km project into two 40km stretches shouldn’t be a surprise, as there’s a history of keeping contracts in the “hundreds of millions” price-range to allow for more competitive tendering: not many companies would be willing to take on the whole €1billion job.

But setting “Buttevant” as the start-point of a partial build would leave one of the most dangerous section of the N20 (Boherash Cross to Buttevant) in place: the only potential tie-in point is about 3 km north of Buttevant where the new build joins the alignment of the old road.

But no Minister has much say on how projects are delivered anyway. Ministers do the politics bit: they guide the general policies of the department and make high-level decisions about how budgets are spent. They certainly do not get into the details of how projects are tendered - that’s the job of the permanent staff at the department; people who have the necessary training and the experience in planning and oversight of large infrastructure projects (plus, any minster who interferes in procurement risks being accused of corruption).

Based on previous road projects, I can almost guarantee that this work will be tendered as at least two projects - it may even be three. Ryan’s role is only to decide about which of these can start first, and how soon the others follow afterward.

What I’m saying, basically, is that anyone saying it was Eamon Ryan’s idea that the project is split into two parts is very very likely to be wrong. And while it might be his wish to postpone one of those parts - it also might be that he is forced to postpone part of the project against his will by budgetary constraints: he could be completely gung-ho to get his vision of an active-travel equipped motorway built, but there could simply be no money do it all at once.

The next Minister, assuming they’re not an idiot (sadly, not an impossible outcome), would also be taking advice from the professionals on this; maybe that minister will decide to do all parts together, maybe they’ll decide to do none of it at all, or maybe they’ll scrap the plan and request a redesign. But I bet you it’ll still be multiple projects.

There is also no economy of scale effect over such distances. Quarries supplying one end of the project aren't going to want to haul materials 60+km up the existing N20, that would negate any hunger they might have for supplying the nearer sections. The same labour and plant can't be working on both ends simultaneously either. Splitting it makes sense for everyone.

That assumes that there are significant quantities of stone excavated, which isn't necessarily the case. Also, extensive testing is required for any stone to be used in the road buildup (pyrite, etc.), can't just throw in any stone that happens to be there. Quarries will have a testing regime and quality control procedures already, establishing that for some random bit of stone excavated isn't worth the hassle unless you have a significant quantity.

What did I say that was wrong?

Significant quantities of usable stone can't be assumed. Given the route is through prime agricultural land, volumes of stone excavated are likely to be at the lower end of the scale.

As you say, cut/fill is considered at design stage. The initial route study area was huge which allowed scope to select a route with favourable ground conditions and requiring minimal cut/fill. The terrain along the route generally is quite flat.

What stone is there would have to be tested to determine what it can be used for. If the route doesn't have much stone, and the stone that is there is poor, then you won't yield much from within the site.

Several quarries would be supplying to the M20 regardless of it being one or several contracts. Haul distances alone would mean you'd need a huge fleet of trucks as the number of daily runs to far away parts would be low.

Cut and fill earthworks often don't involve any stone at all, its mostly soil. The recent Ballyvourney to Macroom required going through areas with a lot of rock but that project was an exception. The nature of this island means that soft ground is more likely to be an issue and large volumes of stone has to be imported.

There is a strict specification for stone in road buildup and this comes mostly from established quarries. Any stone excavated from within the site will generally be used for making up levels elsewhere, filling in localised soft spots or embankments.

I drove to Shannon from Cork today and both my Map apps were telling me to go through Mitchelstown both directions, during rush hour and during normal traffic. This got me thinking about how many of the Cork Commuter belt never use the n20 as it currently is because it is so terrible. I bring this up because I feel the official journey numbers between the two cities are massively under reported due to this.

I checked it out, and if I just stick to Cork city Commuter towns I got a population of 125,000 that should realistically never use the N20. This is more people than Limerick's metropolitan district! Let me know if you think I got the area wrong, but I feel everyone in this area would be better off going up the M8

It shows we need a proper northern bypass as part of it too, but I think if traffic was ok/normal, it would be worth going through the city (or around the current n ring road) and heading straight up a full Motorway instead of half way up the M8 and gambling you won't hit a load of tractors between Mitchelstown and Caherconlish

Hopefully this will move a lot faster now the greens have been removed.