M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

timmyntc · 13-03-2025 03:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123260465#Comment_123260465

Funny article. It makes claims that all these conditions are obstacles to road building, but never says what they are

To avoid paywall:

Ryan has given the TII the funding to complete roads which are already under construction, such as the Moycullen bypass in Galway and the Listowel bypass in Kerry, or those about to go under construction, such as the M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy motorway.
But his advisers have found a clever way for him to long-finger the projects using a little-known section of road traffic legislation. Section 24 of the roads act allows Ryan to set down “conditions as he sees fit” on how TII uses its road funding.
TII has traditionally been able to keep a large number of road projects at different stages of its pipeline because it knows that some will never be delivered due to planning permission refusals or ground conditions.
But due to the conditions set down by Ryan, TII cannot advance any of these ten road projects towards construction. It can take up to 15 years to deliver a road project. Ryan, therefore, will have an influence on the delivery of new roads long after his current term in office ends.

What are these conditions that Ryan had used to block road building in this country? I have yet to hear them

Red Silurian · 13-03-2025 03:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123257893#Comment_123257893

total integrated travel solution

We need a better name for this before it's shortened to an acronym

hans aus dtschl · 13-03-2025 03:18PM

More to the point, as we've been through about ten times on here, the road literally WAS stopped by the previous administration at the CPO stage, sending it right back to design stage.

People can reasonably argue that Eamon Ryan and the Greens didn't progress the M20 as fast as they could have or should have, but nobody can point to

Eamon Ryan stalling the M20 like every other road project in the country
Eamon Ryan delaying it using the red herring that it should go the eastern route via Tipperary and connect to the M8.
Eamon Ryan using the total integrated travel solution looking of rail and cycling infrastructure as well.
Eamon Ryan making sure it got nowhere near planning on his watch.

None of those are accurate comments:

M20 progressed, it did not stall. You can say it should have progressed faster, would have progressed faster etc, but it did not stall. Thankfully.

The Eastern Route appraisal needed to be done because the whole thing went back to design stage after the previous government - not mentioning political parties because that jibberish is beneath us - left the project stall. Plenty know-nothings in the media were harping on about the R513 and N24 routes being more viable, this wasn't just some Eamon Ryan grow-your-food-on-your-windowsill gaffe. We had to defend the M20 route on here a large number of times because of posters (myself included at first!) thinking that other routes would be better. The numbers NEEDED to be produced at design stage to refute this. This had nothing to do with Eamon Ryan, it was necessary design work.

The integrated travel solution is likely the only reason the M20 project progressed as well as it did, when the Galway Ring Road really has stalled for taking the alternative approach. You can count us lucky that "Ryan intervened" in this way. (Note: in reality, Ryan didn't intervene at all and isn't responsible for this fortunate decision, the glory here goes to the very good M20 project team).

And finally the road was explicitly funded and progressed towards planning on Eamon Ryan's watch. Again, he doesn't get kudos for this, he did nothing particularly good or bad, the scheme just progressed as it should have.

And by the way, if someone wants to come on and say that a different political party stalled this project then I'll also come on and defend the decision they made and the circumstances in which they made it (while lamenting it at the same time!).

This "Eamon Ryan stole my lunch" stuff was old even when he was still a politician, I'm beyond fed up of it now.

hans aus dtschl · 13-03-2025 03:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123260502#Comment_123260502

Yep, it's fairly amazing that a project which had to go right back to the start of the design stage and only got route options published in 2020 is behind a project that had its route options in 2015 alright.

Almost like it's….five…years….behind…

hans aus dtschl · 13-03-2025 03:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123260465#Comment_123260465

Shocking news there alright. First time we've discussed it I'm sure. Does he mention the M20 many times in the article, and does it say how long the M20 was stalled for?

Or does it state - during election season, cough, cough - that Peter Walsh of the TII would prefer to see multi-annual funding for roads projects because the projects COULD BE DELAYED BECAUSE OF UNCERTAINTY AROUND FUNDING OVER THE COMING YEARS?

I'm not coming on here to defend Eamon Ryan or spoof that he wasn't against roads projects, or that some of his and his party's notions around large infrastructure projects were very poor. But there's literally no evidence that Eamon Ryan stalled the M20, delayed M20 by interfering in route options, delayed M20 by insisting on integrated transport solutions or made sure M20 got nowhere near planning on his watch.

Hibernicis · 13-03-2025 03:57PM

Don't know why this is even being discussed as it's ancient history and that clown Ryan is finally gone, but it clear that he did everything he could to block the M20. When the daft M8/NM24 option was shut down he started with the bypass alternative (Charelville, Mallow and Buttevant). He was unfortunate that this wasn't going to fly with Coveny, Martin and McGrath much less with government TDs in North Cork and East Limerick. And in fact he picked a stupid hill to take a stand on as he united all the others and they made a point of beating him down and forcing him to accept and progress the M20.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40712819.html

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ryans-bypasses-will-breathe-life-into-towns-but-theyre-taking-a-toll-on-motorway-plans/40899060.html

hans aus dtschl · 13-03-2025 04:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123261125#Comment_123261125

Did he manage to stall it, yeah?

Or did he just try?

hans aus dtschl · 13-03-2025 04:25PM

And also I'd just like to take the time here again to fight back at the kudos being proposed to TD's who had virtually zero interest in the M20 while I and many other tried to get their attention for it.

When you've been contacting TD's and councillors and trying to get their attention for a project, it is pretty galling to see them getting praise afterwards. A plague on all their houses until around 2019 or so basically. "We have no money for infrastructure…sorry"

Kermit.de.frog · 04-05-2025 09:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123260846#Comment_123260846

This country seems to me to be ungovernable now in terms of providing infrastructure.

Too much bullshit, too much bureaucracy and too much "democracy" where every Tom, Dick and Harry gets to have their say in the convoluted planning process and then the courts. On top of that the government then has these so called series of "funding gates" before they sign off on a project.

End result is literally decades of delays now on any major project and ultimately most won't be done because the bottom falls out of the economy which means more delay or cancellation.

Our system is not working and it's now a serious threat to the future prospects of the country.

We have never had more resources and yet there is not a single infrastructure project of national importance close to even starting anywhere in the country.

The whole system is broken.

Chris_5339762 · 05-05-2025 10:30AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123418273#Comment_123418273

To be honest (and I won't go into more detail as this thread is perenially derailed), this is happening in pretty much every western economy.

kub · 06-05-2025 05:53PM

Peter O Mahony puts it well ;

https://twitter.com/byBrendanOBrien/status/1919740759021883416?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1919740759021883416%7Ctwgr%5E6dd3d05b2693339b7bccbbd21871411e780d3048%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fdiscussion%2F2057957948%2Fmunster-team-talk-thread-beirne-after-reading%2Fp1034

Charles Babbage · 06-05-2025 09:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123418273#Comment_123418273

There was a period 20 years ago that we got a lot done in a decade or so. We got the job done on tunnels in Cork. Dublin and Limerick, the LUAS lines, motorways to many parts of the country. We need to get back to that.

spacetweek · 06-05-2025 09:31PM

I read How big Things get Done by Bent Flybjerg. I can see now how we got so many motorways built in the 2000s. Standard design for each, strong pipeline of projects so teams could just move onto the next one when the current one was finished, streamlined bureaucratic method, strong government support all the way to the top. Basically once you had one motorway built the rest of them followed the exact same pattern so we were able to crank them out.

Metrolink on the other hand is a one off project, the entire island has never had one of these built. As for the Dart, the last time it saw a major project was 40 years ago. Everyone who worked on that is either retired or long forgotten it. As for the Luas we built the two easy lines first. All future Dublin lines and the Cork line don’t have reservations we can use so they are more difficult.

https://www.amazon.ie/How-Big-Things-Get-Done/dp/1035018950/ref%3Dasc_df_1035018950/?tag=ieshopgosmp-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=743310902808&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8341488303319226479&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007850&hvtargid=pla-2196100620633&psc=1&language=en_IE&mcid=1b329f62264635edb129642621b549dd&tag=ieshopgosmp-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=743310902808&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8341488303319226479&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007850&hvtargid=pla-2196100620633&psc=1&language=en_IE&gad_source=1

cgcsb · 07-05-2025 12:04PM

Hopefully we can get to a steady stream of projects like we had before with the motorways. Electrifying and straightening the railways could be like that, section by section in a continuous stream. We could also have a steady stream of luas projects. Metro is a different beast and we're unlikely to have more than 2 or 3 lines built in a century and likely none outside of Dublin.

The problem is the planning process though, it has grown arms and legs since the motorway boom, a decision takes years and any melter can bring any project through years of courtroom crap

Red Silurian · 07-05-2025 12:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123425208#Comment_123425208

You could nearly set up a semi-state building contractor to get all that done without having to rely on the private sector to provide boots on the ground

ABP are much faster at giving decisions now than they were even 3-4 years ago. The planning process can be done now in 9 months from start to finish with the right attitude even if there's an objection to ABP

cgcsb · 07-05-2025 01:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123425349#Comment_123425349

I don't think this faster abp has or will ever materialise. Meteolink is 3 years with them now. No sign of any speed up on any major project.

Red Silurian · 07-05-2025 02:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123425472#Comment_123425472

Here's a planning decision I heard about from a family member. Basically some residents objected to a development at a Circle K station

https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/case/319631

Original application received by the council on 22/02/2024

Appeal lodged with ABP on 01/05/2024

Permission granted by ABP on 19/12/2024

Less than a year from the very start to approval, including an ABP appeal. Previously ABP appeals could delay a project for 18-20 months so there has been an improvement there

Metrolink will never move away from the planning phase but it has very little to do with ABP and more to do with politicians not giving a crap

KrisW1001 · 07-05-2025 04:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123425765#Comment_123425765

So, a ruling on a plan to add eight EV charging spots to a petrol station forecourt that’s already built… 10 months. I guess that’s the shortest period you can have for a planning appeal once you let everyone know and have their say about things.

That really tells us nothing about how long it “should” take for a ruling on the largest construction project undertaken on this island for a century, with the added bonus of running under the centre of Dublin city. (Ardnacrusha was a huge undertaking, but it wasn’t built under O’Connell Street).

This narrative that “they” are conspiring to prevent progress on MetroLink is, franky, idiotic. Just stop for a moment, ignore the planted whingers on Twitter and use your own brain to try come up with a plausible reason why any political party would stop something that has almost universal support from the electorate. There isn’t one. The only downside for politicians is if their name somehow gets associated with the delays on this project.

Red Silurian · 07-05-2025 05:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123426105#Comment_123426105

You've missed the point, it's gone from 20 months to 10 months for a development of that size. So the ABP process has sped up

try come up with a plausible reason why any political party would stop something that has almost universal support from the electorate

Because such an undertaking would take the lifetime of multiple governments. If it starts today then by the time Metrolink gets finished the politicians that we see in power today will be long gone.

There's no benefit for them to complete a project but if you tell the electorate you're behind it and will do your utmost to get the job over the line they'll vote for you.

You can apply the same logic to a tram system in Cork, Limerick, Galway and the motorways that connect all 3 cities, hence why none of them will ever happen

bk · 07-05-2025 05:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123423832#Comment_123423832

Yes, this big time, if you look at successful public transport systems around the world, like high speed rail in Spain or China, it is always the same, a core, highly experienced team going from project to project.

I do think we are about to start see that again here in Ireland as their is a pipeline of projects about to start:

BusConnects, 12 separate corridor projects about to start in Dublin and more elsewhere in the country.

DART+ has multiple sub projects that should keep them busy for years.

I know it isn't official yet, but I expect the next NDP review will include the Luas 2050 vision or some variant of that. Basically multiple new Luas lines for Dublin, in addition to the Cork one.

Metrolink is somewhat the odd man out there, but it just needs to be done, it is too important to tieing together all of Dublin's public transport projects.

spacetweek · 11-05-2025 10:46AM

Now let’s get back to the M20.

betistuc · 14-05-2025 11:52AM

M20 ( or lack of) was given a bit of coverage on the Oliver Callan radio show this am. He was following on from Peter O'Mahony's recent , justified rant about that bastard of a road.

Tockman · 14-05-2025 01:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123217382#Comment_123217382

So, it’s been way more than 10 weeks now—it's actually creeping up on six months since the next design stage was supposed to be published. Is this delay intentional? What’s going on with the design team? They seem to be seriously behind.