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Doping megathread - I can't even think of a witty tagline

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Comments

  • #182
    dahat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,067 ✭✭✭✭dahat


    Premier League players taking pain killing injections to "get" through the game or tennis payers hobbling into the changing room then coming back out like there was never an injury.

    There is no common standard enforced no matter what list WADA publish.



  • #183
    Paddigol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395111#Comment_122395111

    Hadn't heard of that at all, which is much more shocking that the failed test itself. I skim through the sports news every day and hadn't seen any report of it. Almost as though it's being buried, or that nobody wants to have to ask the hard questions of the sport they cover/ follow. Not a peep on the likes of OTB in their news summary on the radio. As you say, this isn't small news or a nobody. It says it all really.

    It would be great if either a) we (the sporting public) could drop the charade of pretending ball sports are clean or b) apply the same standards to athletics and cycling and drop the cynicism.

    I completely get why cycling fans are quick to be suspicious/ cynical… its kind of our right given the recent past. But the lecturing from the pulpit by everyone else with no interest in the sport (have to laugh at the RTE/ OTB lads trying to pronounce the names of various cycling stars this time of year) is pretty grating.



  • #184
    cletus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,369 ✭✭✭cletus


    Folks, WADA don't test every pro sport. They have published an Anti Doping Charter that sporting governing bodies can sign up to.

    Testing is done by National Anti Doping Agencies, International Federations, or events organisers.

    So, to take rugby as an example, World Rugby signed up to the charter, but they are wholly and totally responsible for the testing that takes place (or not, as the case may be).

    Per their own Code;

    As provided in the Code, World Rugby shall be responsible for conducting all aspects of Doping Control.

    The UFC had a contract with USADA (the American national anti doping agency) for a number of years. They cancelled it last year and, as the major events organiser, they now conduct their own testing.

    Essentially, each sporting federation can decide how stringently they are applying the rules.



  • #185
    Paddigol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395913#Comment_122395913

    Nobody's criticising WADA here though. It's pretty clear where FIFA's and UEFA's primary focus i$… suits them down to the ground to keep any discussion of doping, let alone enforcement and detection, well and truly under the carpet. And possibly lay down a concrete floor on top of that carpet. With teams of lawyers siting on top of the concrete floor.



  • #186
    cletus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,369 ✭✭✭cletus


    It was more to point out the reason for the discrepancies that people are seeing in the testing across sports. The UCI have contracted ITA to do their testing. The UCI would have told them the level of testing they require.

    Regarding the perception of other sports, it's a combination of fans who are deluded and believe that doping isn't rife across the board, and fans that just don't care. Most sports fans, particularly ball sports, have no clue how the testing protocol works.



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  • #187
    Mefistofelino
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,070 ✭✭✭Mefistofelino


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122396713#Comment_122396713

    To be picky, its the analysis that's done in the labs. Testing will include the entire process including athlete targeting, sample collection and results processing.

    For example, if you are some mega-bucks sporting organisation and think some of your stars are dodgy AF, but they are good earners for the organisation, you might decide to not select them for testing, or let them know in advance that they will be tested, or not act on an Adverse Analytical Finding. The lab itself would be an innocent party in this.



  • #188
    cletus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,369 ✭✭✭cletus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122396804#Comment_122396804

    This exactly. When World Rugby (as an example) decide to run testing, they can decide who gets tested, how often, and how much notice is given.

    The external testing agencies are normally non governmental, not-for-profit organisations that are contracted to do a job. The group hiring them can decide what level of testing they require.



  • #189
    G1032
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,301 ✭✭✭G1032


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395550#Comment_122395550

    Nope. Not a word on OTB. They were quick enough to report Picollo's ban however. Wouldn't suit them boys to report any scandal unless it was cycling or athletics



  • #190
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,557 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122396713#Comment_122396713

    As someone else said, it’s the same analysis. The same testing structure isn’t in place.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #191
    Bambaata
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,158 ✭✭✭Bambaata


    Fuentes back in the news, I wonder will OTB even mention this or is it getting a bit close to their soccer crowd with all the allegations of the Spanish soccer teams supposedly connected but that the Spanish judge wouldn't let be released

    https://www.sportschau.de/investigativ/geheimsachedoping/schatten-ueber-olympia-1992-fuentes-beschreibt-spanisches-doping-system%2Cfuentes-spanisches-doping-system-100.html



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  • #192
    Macy0161
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,652 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Hard to see (the absolute legend) Victor Campenaerts spending 9 weeks at altitude, half of it just him and his pregnant girlfriend, if there was some easier method.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122398881#Comment_122398881

    Pep's failed tests never get mentioned, so I doubt it.



  • #193
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,370 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122398881#Comment_122398881

    The energy levels of that Spanish team were on another level.
    I remember Costa Rica at the 2016 World Cup being similar.

    Not reached those levels before or since.

    Would not surprise me if they had 'help'.

    Spanish judge protecting Spanish prestige.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #194
    Paddigol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122399351#Comment_122399351

    It would surprise me if they didn't. If subjected to the same testing and analysis rigours as pro cyclists, it would surprise me if most elite rugby players didn't fail.



  • #195
    Large bottle small glass
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    The power estimates are very accurate

    https://x.com/CyclingGraphs/status/1812939837114315096

    "Yes, I would almost go so far as to say. The others on the team said that someone has estimated how many watts per kilo we have entered. To put it bluntly, it is very accurate" Jonas Vingegaard July 15

    https://lanternerouge.com/2024/07/19/second-greatest-performance-of-all-time-by-pogacar-tour-de-france-2024-stage-19/

    Some fairly sobering graphs there. Current top riders are wiping the floor with blood and EPO cheats with hematocrit levels as high as 60%.

    If training techniques, nutrition is accounting for this we'd see similar in 5000, 10000m, marathon etc etc.

    All over seen by the great Mauro Gianetti under the moral direction of princes of Abu Dhabi.

    On Spain I've no doubt there is widespread doping in professional soccer but that's not necessarily the reason they won all their games. They are really good at retaining the ball and have better technique and cohesion than the other top.

    Soccer is a much nicer game to play when you control the play rather than being the donkeys chasing shadows trying to get the ball back.



  • #196
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,583 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    IIRC 50% was the magic hematocrit number LA's riders were ordered to keep below to avoid arousing suspicion. Presumably Pogacar and co. are having their hematocrit levels regularly measured?

    So is it reasonable to be able to produce these sorts of performances (in terms of W/kg or VO2 max) with a genuinely low hematocrit level, how do the measures relate to each other?



  • #197
    G1032
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,301 ✭✭✭G1032


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404268#Comment_122404268

    The power numbers are off the charts. I'm 73kg or thereabouts. What Pog is doing is the equivalent of me riding 515 watts for 40 minutes 2.5 weeks into a GT🤣🤣.

    UAE and Pog are taking the p!ss. It's just ridiculous at this stage.



  • #198
    G1032
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,301 ✭✭✭G1032


    It's long been accepted that the limits of human capabilities, riding clean, are about 6.4w/kg for 40 minutes. They are blowing these numbers out of the water all of a sudden. Where is it all going to end?



  • #199
    Morris Garren
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 713 ✭✭✭Morris Garren


    ... and he doesn't even look tired. Imagine that.



  • #200
    G1032
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,301 ✭✭✭G1032


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404999#Comment_122404999

    He literally looks fresher than someone rolling in home after a Sunday spin



  • #201
    Raoul Duke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404876#Comment_122404876

    I've seen this written a few times. How sure are you/we of it's accuracy?



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  • #202
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122405169#Comment_122405169

    We can't, it was an estimation from years ago based on back of the envelope calculations. It used to be 6.2 and before that it was 5.8. We can set average person limits but there will always be genetic anomalies who are found at the right time and will go above anything we estimated as possible.



  • #203
    Raoul Duke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122405310#Comment_122405310

    Thanks. That's what I figured.



  • #204
    G1032
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,301 ✭✭✭G1032


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122405169#Comment_122405169

    So I'm basing it on what Ross Tucker said in a recent podcast. Vingegaard has gone on record as saying the estimates are pretty spot on and they also use data from other riders Derek Gee and use that in estimates too. They reckon they are accurate to within a percent or 2

    Edit. Sorry. It was the 6.4w/kg you were talking about. I don't know. I've just heard it so many times over the last few years I assumed it was accurate. Never hear it contradicted.



  • #205
    Large bottle small glass
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    https://sportsscientists.com/2010/07/cycling-performance-what-is-possible/

    From 2011



  • #206
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122405633#Comment_122405633

    Like everything though, it makes assumptions, and like all science, you have to accept what is in front of you until the evidence points you elsewhere. The take home message though is for the majority of people, it is safe to say, holding X W/kg over Y minutes is indicative (not conclusive) of doping.

    What the article doesn't say is that it is impossible (it most certainly isn't), that there are not a subset of humans who genetically can't do this. Also, just to be clear, the 6.2 number they use is exactly what I said earlier, a back of the envelope number from an academic, who even caveated it with, "could be an indication". Nothing published, nothing tested. I say this as a former frustrated sports scientist, I am all for the pursuit of the facts but not the hanging of an innocent person. Sports Science is a pain in the hole (and I know there are a few on here), getting numbers to make publishable data is beyond frustrating.

    In a year from now, or 10 years from now, we may learn of a wonder drug with lasting benefits that the drug itself dissipates (plenty of cancer drugs out there ripe for the pro athlete, all you need is a way to make it unstable and flush out of the system quickly), use lab durans rather than plastic bags for long term blood storage to avoid micro plastic detection, look for natural anti coagulants that will be broken down quickly and so on.

    I do wonder out of interest, what the likes of Pantani, Shay etc, would have achieved with what we have now, the aero dynamics, the tactics, the lead outs, the protection. For all we know though, all these things cold have benefited others more, it is an interesting query if nothing else.



  • #207
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,557 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404876#Comment_122404876

    It has not been “long accepted” that the limit is 6.4w/kg. It’s a made up number with no science behind it. It may be an indicator, but it may not.

    I’ll ask again: If people think he’s doping, what is he taking? It’s not EPO or blood doping.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #208
    G1032
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,301 ✭✭✭G1032


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122405967#Comment_122405967

    I would agree. Hardly EPO and not blood doping. Who knows 🤷‍♂️



  • #209
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Might be nothing, might be something. Loads on social media comparing the same geographic location with different bikes, different equipment, different build up, actual nutrition strategies, smoother roads, different attack strategies (resting at the start rather than going at it for the entire duration). Things as simple as spinning up and ice vests. Ice vests actually have data on them. They don't make you better or faster but they do help you stay as close to your optimal for longer. Even feeding strategies are far superior now to what they were 20 years ago, never mind comparing these races to 30 years ago or longer.

    I'm not saying no one is doing anything wrong but what I am saying is that it is not impossible. It is unlikely, but not impossible. They may also be doing things that will be illegal at some point but at this point in time are on a thin line. You are comparing the likes of Sean Kelly who would go full gas on a spin round his home place for a few hours, come home, have a fry, then go off and do another few hours with teams that have nutritionists, plans, timetable, specific athletes targeted with different meals.

    Then there is the case of tactics changing so much over the last 50 years, there was a time when riders might just hang about all day as part of an agreement, or they all wanted a rest.

    Long story short, doping or not, the comparison to riders of the past is a nonsense way to start, it is interesting but nothing else. Nothing stays secret forever so I do believe people need to keep asking the uncomfortable questions but I also don't like the insinuation that there is no other choice but doping. It is a good explanation but there are others.

    Interestingly, if Pog and Jonas, were not there, Remcos performance would be suspicious, and so on. The truth is, compared to the average club cyclist, even the average A1 rider, every riders performance on the tour is unusual to say the least.



  • #210
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,741 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    https://www.planetrugby.com/news/springboks-world-cup-winners-career-in-tatters-ahead-of-doping-ban?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3ibiTt0zIH-sA9sKnwyeBjr1jX4pUOus-IBtPythGENJ_p6OgIJ5dIdn4_aem_CH-DiPHWtJqKRhlUj5FsnQ#Echobox=1721552218

    Figured it was relevant to the conversation previously about rugby



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  • #211
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,987 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Well, just to be clear, he stole my words :

    https://youtu.be/4xq-YpjbY3Y?si=0Tf64Lxm3KNdPuPH


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