Doping megathread - I can't even think of a witty tagline

Squidgy Black

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122409161#Comment_122409161

I’d say Armstrong’s ego is massively bruised, regardless of whether Pog is juiced up to the gills or not, he’s destroyed Armstrong’s times and is being spoken about as being one of the greatest of all time. That’ll have Armstrong absolutely fuming. I’d say even the slight possibility of Pog being clean and still smashing him, has him foaming at the mouth.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122409161#Comment_122409161

Armstrong is the last person I’d listen to. He’s a gimp.

harringtonp

Three biggest takeaways for me between Pantani's ascent and now are:

1. Gearing. Huge difference between having to grind your ways up steep climbs on 44-23 lowest gear (somebody somewhere in this forum dug this out) and spinning your way up them in much lower gears. And its not just the climbs in question, the grinding on previous steep climbs will wear the legs down.
2. Altitude training
3. Training methodology. The impression I always got from ex pros books is that while they understood the benefits of base training well there was very little methodology. Always struck me that they were hugely talented guys who mainly spent hours cycling their bikes (for the base) and would then take in some hills to mix in intensity. And then depend on races to get race fitness. This is a world apart from structured training with power meters and we are now at a point where the majority of younger pros would have done structured training with PMs and coaches from the beginning of their teenage years. In my view, this makes a massive difference and cannot be ignored.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122409258#Comment_122409258

And I'd be over the moon even if Pog was doping because Pog aside, Lance was a c*nt and any excuse to stick the boot in a bit further is always welcome

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122409769#Comment_122409769

A neighbour of mine once had Sean Kelly and his entire team arrive on his door outside of Rosslare port. The team car had drove off to Carrig and the team got multiple punctures just outside of Rosslare. They pulled in and when asked about a repair, my friend was known as the local to get things done. As thanks, Sean invited him over to his house at the weekend for a ride and breakfast. He repaired a few punctures, and the next Sunday he went over to Seans house with a friend. When they arrived, Sean was not there but his wife cooked them breakfast. Sean arrived back, ate breakfast and said, lets go. Now my friend was a good racer, placed in the Shay Elliott in a yar the weather was so bad most abandoned, and won many races around Wexford. By todays standards would have been a strong A1. Sean had already done a morning warm up of over 100km at decent pace, and this was his cool down ride. They nearly died trying to hold his wheel for the spin.

You have hit most of it on the head, the gears, the theory, the training, it is a different world.

Raymzor

Vingegaards second place was a huge achievement given the injuries he suffered on April 4th.

I think he improved a lot over the course of the Tour.

It was 13 weeks from the crash to the start of the tour. With broken ribs could he have been back training after 6 weeks giving him only 7 weeks to prepare for the tour?

Vingegaard’s performance given the above is more “spectacular” than Pogacar’s? Anyone disagree?

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122409979#Comment_122409979

If Vingegaard looked fresh as a daisy after each stage, despite losing, I'd agree.

Instead he looked wiped (and human) after each stage.

Today was the first day I actually saw Pogacar break a sweat. Every other day it was a walk in the park for him.

I don't think training-wise Pogacar does anything that different to the other major teams, eg Ineos, in terms of altitude training. And Carapaz for example grew up at altitude.

Maybe Pogacar is clean, but his performance was without doubt superhuman.

Daroxtar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122409979#Comment_122409979

A few years ago i got smashed up off the bike. I had punctured lung, broken ribs, hairline fracture of the elbow and separated AC joint. Spent nearly a week in hospital and 2 months out of work. The lung and ribs healed very quickly, I was back doing light spins on the turbo after 3 weeks. The shoulder was the worst, kept me off the road for nearly 2 months. That happened in May, I was setting PRs on segments in the mountains by September. If a slightly overweight, middle aged asthmatic can do it, the best in the world can do it.

Junior

https://escapecollective.com/opinion-we-cant-yet-explain-tadej-pogacars-sudden-leap/

This is a bit light on substance, for example leaning on the previous discussion here about the 6.4W/Kg, it doesn't illustrate that or where it came from or how it was achieved. It doesn't delve into this 120g of Carbs per hour thing as well. I know some journalists are wary of being parrots for bunkum science as well, so maybe there's an element of that in it.

It also leaves out the elephant in the room of the estimation of Pog climbing at 7W/Kg for 30 plus minutes..

Drake66

Not cycling specific, but this is an interesting video with Victor Conte describing his doping operation in the U.S

https://youtu.be/2op5XG7LGkI?si=gu4T6MB_8TGV8UgJ

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122414926#Comment_122414926

Leaving aside the question of doping, everyone is interested in how Pogacar improved so much. He always had the explosive kick and was able to launch himself quickly out of the pack. But his ability to sustain it over long distances in the mountains in successive days and weeks is something else.

People are saying he's done things differently this year, and the different preparation has helped, such as doing the Giro.

However, this makes is sound like all the other GC teams are amateurish in their approach and well behind. I don't think that's true. All the major GC teams put a major effort into bike technology, training, nutrition and general preparation, including altitude training. If they thought doing the Giro would help prepare better for the Tour, then you'd see this more frequently. At best Pogacar's changes in preparation should deliver marginal gains, as they are marginally better than what others have done.

One thing in Pogacar's favour however, is that outside Vingegaard, Evenepoel and very occassionally Roglic, there's a real lack of genuine contendors who can put it up to Pogacar. Its a bit like men's tennis, when the big three could thrive in a relatively weak era among the rest.

loyatemu

Its a bit like men's tennis, when the big three could thrive in a relatively weak era among the rest.

was it a weak era or were they just incredibly good? It's hard to tell. Murray in another era could've won 8 slams putting him alongside the likes of Becker and Agassi. Even if he'd only coincided with 2 of the big 3 he'd have won a few more.

Has there ever been an era where the Tour could be won by (say) any of of 10 riders - in the time I've been following it there's always been one or two strong favourites at the start and if they don't win it's because of injury or because some young new rider has come through unexpectedly. The Giro and Vuelta are less predictable because the really top riders have often skipped them to concentrate on the Tour.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122403900#Comment_122403900

I'm not necessarily suggesting that a national team has a doping regime in the way you're describing it - bringing in a group of players from different clubs and getting them on board with a doping system at national level. If the clubs themselves - or even just the very top players - are tolerant of playing fast and loose with performance enhancers year round, the national team will benefit from that. In 2008 there were only 5 players in the squad not playing in La Liga. In 2010 it was 3. In 2012 it was 4. Half of the squad were made up of players from just 2 clubs.

In terms of what help - who knows. I didn't know what Ketones were when they became news a couple of years ago. This new malarkey that people are referencing with Pog - no idea what that is either. I've no idea what's out there these days. But what I do know is that if you take a puff of an inhaler in cycling you're hammered, your team is ridiculed and the entire sport goes under the microscope. Whereas in contact sports it seem to be just accepted that pain killers are standard treatment for injuries.

Even down to diet - cyclists (and track athletes to a lesser degree) seem obsessed with knowing what's in their food - the fact that cheat meals, dream foods after Tours etc are spoken about - is in contrast with footballers who never publicly mention these kind of things. That's indicative of a culture where the fear of eating contaminated food is non existent… leading you to wonder just how scrupulous the testing is at all. In a world where there's so much at stake, and so many options to enhance performance through 'supplements', along with a seemingly non-existent testing regime… why is it that cyclists are naïve for trusting Pog's performance but there's no questions asked about the levels of performance of top footballers?

Spain played a very intense pressing game at their peak - as soon as they lost possession they would swarm opponents to get it back. Their style may look easy, but its the non-stop running and movement off the ball, often not picked up by cameras, which gradually wears teams down. The sheer relentlessness of it all.

I completely agree with you in terms of people believing what they want to and perceived biases etc. I think cycling suffers a lot for that, especially because it's not really aligned on national lines. Athletics had a very similar issue with doping in the same eras as cycling - but because it's organised along national lines people seem much more willing to forget and overlook. I've no proof of anything, the only difference is that I view all sports through the same prism and see cycling's more regular reports of doping fails as evidence of a more vigorous approach to catching the dopers rather than evidence of a more prevalent doping culture these days.

Applying the "it would be so difficult to do it surely it's not being done" logic to cycling, you'd have to ask yourself why top cyclists would dope for relatively minimal financial reward (compare pro cycling to other pro sports in terms of what the average pro earns) in what must be the strictest anti-doping system in world sport and where every unusual performance is scrutinised to death by even your average fan on the internet.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122410214#Comment_122410214

They're still developing the altitude knowledge and protocols. Working up to higher and higher altitudes throughout a block. I don't think the skineos "altitude native" stuff ever went further than explaining away/ giving enough doubt on suspicious blood values. They really are using so much more knowledge now that was never developed due to EPO.

I know why people love Pog so much, but I have to say Gianetti being so prominent in the background has always tempered that for me. Yes Visma was Rabobank, Lefevere still leading what was mapei, but I just really struggle with UAE so much more.

Mefistofelino

I think a fully fit Vingo would have run it far closer than 6 minutes at the end so if there is a "something" it's reasonable to assume that it is available to Visma and possibly QuickStep too, as the top 3 were ten minutes clear of everyone else.

But the "something" must be on very limited circulation within the teams because it would have made sense to democratise that within a team to keep more riders in play for the GC.

What I find most surprising is that INEOS haven't got this.

Macy0161

Ah, I wasn't accusing myself of being logical! Just my own bias. But everyone has that (other years threads about WvA pulling so long in the mountains, but less about Pollit this year as Pog is more liked!).

Part of it is money for the weeks on end at altitude? Visma are doing long blocks, splitting locations as they move higher and higher, and possibly (not confirmed) using altitude tents to get even "higher".

Ineos are no longer the dominant force financially, in fact their budget has been going down in absolute as well as relative terms. Single blocks on Teide at the same hotel as 10 years ago isn't cutting it any more.

Junior

https://cyclingmagazine.ca/sections/news/romain-bardet-this-tour-was-40-watts-an-hour-more/

Just putting this in here for reading material.

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122415869#Comment_122415869

I like Bardet but its just more of "I coulda been a contender / the French can't win cos of cheatin' forriners" that the riders been spouting for decades now, particularly when they are in the departure lounge. I think Pinot was at the same thing last year.

(And a 40W power increase would increase speeds by ~5% not 10%, Romain)

Junior

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122415917#Comment_122415917

I don't think so, I just think it's a statement of I'm happy to be getting the f*ck out of here.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122415701#Comment_122415701

Just came across this story and it might be relevant. The caveat is there is no evidence teams are going all in with this, just using it for analysis purposes.

https://escapecollective.com/exclusive-tour-riders-are-inhaling-carbon-monoxide-in-super-altitude-recipe/

tobefrank321

There's also the case of financial doping that's rarely mentioned, where teams like UAE can "buy up" other GC contenders and make domestiques out of them - not new of course, as SKY were doing it years ago.

pairofpears

Interesting article here on Cofidis. Martin rode the TDF without a powermeter as the bike was 1kg overweight as it stood.

When you get heavy equipment and the team isnt focused on anything but keeping the sponsors happy Like Movistar when Dowsett was there its hard to be competitive.

https://m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20240723_92891310

Paddigol

OTB lads briefly discussing TDF. In summary… didn’t really watch it cos don’t understand it, can’t pronounce Pog’s name, great to see a Black cyclist win a jersey, sceptical of performances cos of doping history, when you see them coming out day after day of brutal stages you have to wonder etc etc, guffaws about Pogs carbon monoxide rebreather yoke.

So predictable. Not a hope in hell the double standards compared to their questioning of other sports would occur to them. A few miles over their heads. They’ll be tripping over themselves to hop on the Irish Olympic bandwagon in a couple of weeks.

‘journalism’

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122416545#Comment_122416545

I hate to say it, but reads like click bait sh1te even basic biochem tells me it might boost production but then how long is that CO bound. I'd certainly need more info that shows you keep the elevated haemoglobin levels after the CO bound stuff comes out. Certainly would be near impossible to prove if people were doing it and god only knows how you'd ever get a scientific study in humans with it approved by ethics.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122417381#Comment_122417381

They certainly improved.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122416798#Comment_122416798

As someone said of Cofidis to me earlier, back in the US Postal days, they had all the gear that Lance had but not a notion how to use it.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122417381#Comment_122417381

Visma didn't have the riders to do that this year, between crashes and covid. Even WvA was only back from his own spring crash.

Squidgy Black

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122416798#Comment_122416798

Cofidis have embarrassingly come out and said well actually the bike was only 7.4kg without the power meter.

Even though the majority of their competitors bikes were sub 7kg.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cofidis-issues-statement-after-guillaume-martin-blames-heavy-look-bike-and-lack-of-power-meter-for-cofidis-poor-tour-de-france/

drury..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122415162#Comment_122415162

He's well known to be a spoofer and self-publicist

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122417541#Comment_122417541

Same crowd who had BOD on and didn't flinch about painkillers at half time in internationals, I don't blame them, they are fans, and they are passionate, but they are not journalists by any stretch. I take them on board with no more seriousness than a good TV show.

MojoMaker

Joe Molloy is leaving soon so it might get more serious, but to be honest, it may not be what the listenership actually wants.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122422915#Comment_122422915

My post might belong in the doping thread, but it depends on the analgesic being used.

WADA have a list of banned narcotic analgesics, namely

• Buprenorphine
• Dextromoramide
• Diamorphine (heroin)
• Fentanyl and its derivatives
• Hydromorphone
• Methadone
• Morphine
• Nicomorphine
• Oxycodone
• Oxymorphone
• Pentazocine
• Pethidine
• Tramadol

So, stuff like codeine is not on that list, and can be taken in and out of competition.