Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.

World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

1373840424359

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,231 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    It's your understanding of what Streeting is doing (or what the word "clinical trial" means) that is at fault here. Streeting is doing exactly what Cass advised: banning PBs except as part of clinical trials. This is also what the previous Tory Health Minister had ordered to be done.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/wes-streeting-puberty-blockers-ban-transgender-b2579918.html

    You thought that could be got around by just declaring all new treatments of PBs to be part of a clinical trial, but you are quite simply wrong. There's really not a lot of point in me continuing to tell you this. though.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There have been studies establish that it is less than 1%. No medical intervention comes without risks, but the risk of regret is relatively extremely rare in the field of medicine.

    It's a false narrative of the hard right that regret is common.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Until the clinical trial is established there is no way of saying I am wrong. The crime will be is if the clinical trial gets delayed indefinitely as a way to continue the ban by dishonest methods. I am sure you would acknowledge any such thing would be against the Cass recommendations.

    There is also the strong possibility that the high court will declare the ban unsound and politically motivated. In such a case the ban will be gone.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,231 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    So there's no ban then? What are the trans activists all complaining about?

    (Again, you're showing your complete lack of understanding of clinical trials with the nonsense about "delayed indefinitely" and "dishonesty".)

    And could you explain why on earth you think Wes Streeting, who only 2 years ago was saying that "trans women are women" would now be delaying what you think are life saving treatments for "dishonest" reasons? What can possibly have changed his mind to that extent - while being "dishonest" rather than simply convinced that he was wrong before?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    What studies are those Shoog? Are they reliable? Cass acknowledged some reports indicated a 1% regret rate but said they were dangerously badly researched to the point of being dismissable. Are you talking about one of those reports?

    I'm not sure a single post of yours had any real sort of evidence to be honest. You do realise you do your side of the argument more bad than good?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,444 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau


    Are the hard right in the room with us right now?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,934 ✭✭✭Enduro


    You do realise you do your side of the argument more good than bad?

    I'm guessing you meant that in reverse!



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wes Streetly is playing the political wind. He knows that by continuing the ban he plays to people like you - but he also knows that ultimately the treatments will go ahead under the auspices of clinical trials, or in the highly likely case that the ban is declared illegal. He's doing a rather easy bit of grandstanding like a typical politician, an easy win which suits him by not having to take an actual real stand for principle.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb




  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Undoubtedly. Their narrative has been adopted by the transphobes wholesale.

    Its really really hard for the right to find enough regretting patients to drum up their hysteria - which is why it has largely fallen flat and gained zero traction outside of the target demographic who needed no convincing anyway.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Cass - who is just a person; this "right" or "left" stuff is puerile and again paints your argument in a pathetic light - found plenty of regretters. In fact, she found that the organisations pushing this mantra actively turned a blind eye to them. In other words, it was really easy to find them, except that certain vested interests didn't want to know.

    That, once again, is the polar opposite of what you're claiming.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 454 ✭✭briangriffin


    Again that is completely untrue can you show me a long term follow up study or even a short term follow up study from Tavistock? One that monitors the outcomes of the patients who attended and were given puberty blockers at a young age? The " far right" Jesus what a ridiculous comment are all the whistleblower doctors far right is professor Donal O Shea far right? Is Hilary Cass far right?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 857 ✭✭✭greyday


    How will they carry out a clinical trial when they can't tell which 10-20% of kids that present with gender dysphoria will go on to be trans?

    That fact alone is enough to put a stop to that nonsense as they will be doing harm to the 80-90% of kids that go on to be gay rather than trans.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,934 ✭✭✭Enduro


    You don't seem to understand the difference between the BMA and the GMC. You are 100% factually incorrect to assert that the BMA is not a Trade union. The BMA is directly equivalent to SIPTU.

    This is what the BMA have to say about themselves on their "About Us" page of their website…

    The British Medical Association (BMA) is the trade union and professional body for doctors in the UK.

    Couldn't be much clearer than that.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Tavistock - why the fixation on Tavistock. There is a world of other bodies carrying out studies.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The same assessment procedure that has been applied up this time which filtered out 85% of presentations to Tavistock as needing no medical intervention will be applied. You may not accept the clinical expertise of the consultants to make clinical assessments but that not material really.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Can you cite one?

    Maybe one that actually carried out proper research, unlike Tavistock?

    Tavistock is the thing that lifted the lid on this scandal. I think it's reasonable to reference it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,934 ✭✭✭Enduro


    And of course, is Wes Streeting, who was previously employed by Stonewall as their Education officer, far right?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,231 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Which other bodies are training Irish clinicians and have treated Irish children directly?

    AFAIAA, that's only the Tavistock.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,231 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    So your argument is that Streeting was correct and honest when he said trans women are women, but for some unfathomable reason that is becoming an untenable position to hold (why??) and therefore he is now changing - for purely political reasons? But that he still secretly believes that trans women are women and that children will actually die if he does what he has said he will do?

    You don't see a problem with that reading of the timeline?? Not least the horrifying deliberate decision to cause harm for his own career - as well as there being no explanation for why public opinion would be changing in that way if that approach were actually making life better for everyone.

    Because the alternative reading is: some years back, when there was a lot less awareness of the whole question among the general public, Streeting and the Labour Party generally took on a clearly nonsensical view because the activists around him that it was the right thing to do, so he decided, for political reasons, that it was better to go with the flow? Only since then, more information has come out as more and more children have been pushed onto the transition pathway, and now it has become much harder to continue ignoring reality - especially since the Cass report?

    If there's a flaw in that reading of events, please do tell me - but with evidence rather than your usual unevidenced assertions.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I love these tet-e-tet's but I can see that I am starting to distress some people when I hold my beliefs counter to their own so I am going to bow out again until a relevant change occurs to the situation, ie when the high court delivers its verdict on the legality of the ban.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,400 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    You're correct when what you say is your beliefs because it's not reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 857 ✭✭✭greyday


    This will not happen full stop, you also mentioned denying puberty blocker being challenged in the Courts, I for one would look forward to this as the people experimenting on the children will have to pay for their ideology driven experimentation.

    The Courts will only allow a medical protocol that is evidence based which puberty blocker are not, the damage puberty blockers do to the brain of children has now caused major concern in Dutch medical settings, the fact the dutch protocols were done in conjunction with WPATH standard of care 2018 has prompted a thorough review of the protocol which has been deemed to be inconsistent with the highest standards for determining selection of candidates for research trials which do irreversible damage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,231 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Actually, I've been here all along, sitting in the corner, paying careful attention to all contributions. There's no party atmosphere, thankfully, it's far too serious for that. The discussion I've seen has taken two broad forms: i.e. some posters referencing the material in the WPATH files revelations, and the CASS Review, and outlining what they think about one or both, using caseful reasoning that is supported by reliable evidence, while others present arguments along the lines of "that person is a transphobe / anti trans activist" or "that's a political decision", or complaining that a tweet didn't contain a link (jaysus,even a dinosaur llike me can manage a google). I specifically asked you the question because you described yourself as a scientist on another thread.

    Your first post on this thread linked to Transgendermap. volchitsa and me have linked videos and transcripts of Emma Hilton on the other thread - a real scientist doing real science. Transgendermap has profiles of Ms. Hilton, Helen Joyce, Mia Hughes, Graham Linehan and others. Each profile describes the subject as an anti-trans activist, or an extreme anti-trans activist, provides a copious list of references to their works, and basically says "this person says a lot of things I don't like or don't agree with". I couldn't find a single syllable that rebutted anything said or written by the targets.

    Mind you, when another page on that site makes the following claim you know you're in a very scary place:

    Biology

    human who works in science is called a scientist. Some of them study life. The study of life is biology. A person who studies biology is a biologist. Some biologists study reproduction. Reproduction is how living things make more living things.

    The science of reproduction is going to change a lot by the end of the 21st century. That is why some people are scared of transgender people. They are often scared about what will happen when we can change humans and make new ones using new science.

    @Shoog: any thoughts on my question regarding ethics?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,444 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,934 ✭✭✭Enduro


    I know! I'm probably classified as being far right for throwing out those nasty inconvenient facts which contradict their all-important sacred "beliefs".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,231 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    I don’t know if there was any discussion on here about Jolyon Maugham’s (of The Good Law Project) claim to have data proving that the ban on puberty blockers had already caused a massive increase in suicides among young trans people, but he’s just received a massive public slapdown on that from Wes Streeting the new Labour minister for health:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust-independent-report

    Turns out it’s complete nonsense.

    Unsurprisingly.

    The specific aim is to examine evidence for a large rise in suicides claimed by campaigners.

    Summary of conclusions

    The data do not support the claim that there has been a large rise in suicide in young gender dysphoria patients at the Tavistock.

    The way that this issue has been discussed on social media has been insensitive, distressing and dangerous, and goes against guidance on safe reporting of suicide.

    The claims that have been placed in the public domain do not meet basic standards for statistical evidence.

    There is a need to move away from the perception that puberty-blocking drugs are the main marker of non-judgemental acceptance in this area of health care.

    The report actually refers to the GLP and their irresponsible behaviour in making up these claims.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,444 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau


    Jolyon (killing fox in kimono) Maugham is incredibly high on his own supply



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Isn't it an utterly appalling thing to make up stories about people committing suicide to push your own agenda?



Advertisement