Your strength and fitness programming in 2024

redzerredzer · 30-06-2024 01:42PM

I’m doing a physio programmed upper body day to fix arm and elbow issue. There’s quite a few exercises in it so I don’t have time to do full body workout as I have always done.
So for the first time ever I did lower/ leg day workout.
Would anyone care to critique my amateur programming?
* I’ve had lower back and hip injuries so am weak and cautions at lower workouts.

Kettlebell Swings 3x15
Trap Bar Deadlift 5x5
Bodyweight Walking lunges 3x 10 each side
Bodyweight Bulgarian Split Squat 3x8 each side

Thanks

Mellor · 30-06-2024 03:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321029#Comment_122321029

You might get more response in it's own thread. But as a start, a few questions;

What are your goals? Lose weight, get stronger, etc

5x5 deadlifts is typical strength programming. But its the only one tat is 5 reps there.
Unilateral single leg squatty stuff if good. But normal squats with the above as assistance?

redzerredzer · 30-06-2024 03:46PM

thanks for reply.
goal is strength for the purpose of injury prevention and mobility.

Black Sheep · 30-06-2024 10:04PM

I'm three months back to doing quite HIT style bodybuilding.

Just needed a change from Joe D programming. Wanted more basic lifts and to just be adding weight.

This is 3-4 days a week, body part split and quite low volume.

I keep movements the same for six weeks and progressive overload, then switch things up.

So far going pretty well, haven't been this strong in a while.

Chest and back today.. this week is going to be (1) chest and back, (2) legs and (3) shoulders and arms. If I do a 4 day week I would either do a quad dominant day and a ham dominant day or sometimes ill combine back and hams and do stand alone shoulders and arms days.

Anyway, today was

Bench 1x3-6, 1x8-12

Incline bench 1x8-12

Wide pushups 3 sets

Wide grip pullups 5 sets

DB single arm row (lat focus) 1x8-12, 1x12-16

Chest supported DB rows 1x8-12, 1x12-16

And cheeky bonus forearms.. Reverse ez curls, 3x8-12

All the above are the top sets. You've got a heavyier top set then a back off set but both trying to push it.

3 warm ups on the first movement and after that usually just 1 is enough.

Low volume but takes a little over an hour. I still do a Joe DeFanco style warmup first and get an upper back pump going. Some rotator cuff stuff too.

Logbook essential for this.

Mellor · 01-07-2024 12:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321484#Comment_122321484

Thanks.

Deadlifts 5x5 are good. This is your main hips/posterior strength builder.
Watch you form and progress the load slowly, and you'll build a stonger back.
Kettlebell swings are a good hip assistance lift. But be careful. It's easy to get away with bad reps with less challenging load. Don't jerk you lower back, hinge from the hips. Good alternates are Hip Thrusts/GHR/Reverse Hyper (if availible).
Walking lunges are fine, but at bodyweight these are more aligned to warm-up/assistance. Ok to keep in there but I'd add a main lift.
Split Squat can could be a main strength move, but at 3x8 they are more aligned with assistance. Also more suited to that range that linear progression of 5x5. Again, total fine to keep in there.
Squat. This is the main lift I'd add. Any big squat variation. Back squat, front squat, safety bar squat, hack squat if necessary (in the case of the last I'd change my deadlift to traditional bar)

Putting that together;

Kettle Bell Swings 1-2 x 15-20 (Light load, this is a warm up)
Deadlifts 5 x 5 (main hip lift)
Walking Lunges 1-2 x 10-15 (BW/Light load, this is a warm up)
Squat 5 x 5 (main quad lift)
Hip Thrusts/GHR 3 x 8 (hip assistance)
Split Squat 3 x 8 (quad assistance)

redzerredzer · 01-07-2024 06:17PM

thanks very much. Appreciate the program.
I’m nervous switching to tradition deadlift as I have some bad history there. I’m more comfortable with trap bar

Mellor · 02-07-2024 12:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326978#Comment_122326978

Trap bar is fine. That was only a suggestion if you went with hack squat as the squat variation as its similar to trap bar deadlift. But on second thought, that's really only a superficial resemblance.

Hack squat is still very much a quad dominant squat mechanic. Trap bar deadlift should be a hip/hinge. Perfectly fine to do hack squats over rack squats and keep the trap bar deads.
I've also seen people do "trap bar squats".

Cill94 · 03-07-2024 12:02PM

I’m a strong believer that trap bar deads should really only be performed with the low handles.

High handles is too upright to really challenge the back/hips, and a terrible range of motion when compared to squat variations.

The fact most high handle trap bar lifters suck at conventional deadlifts shows how little it does for the hinging muscles.

Black Sheep · 03-07-2024 04:01PM

I did do quad biased trap bar deadlifts in some previous programming, and they have their advocates.

Sometimes I was doing them one day, and on another day I was doing a glute hamstring biased trap bar deadlift, where I was pulling from low handles.

If you are actively trying to bias the quads, if you experiment with pulling high versus low, it becomes pretty clear why you'd pick one over the other.

If your goal for that movement is quad development you don't want to pull from the low handles and have your glutes, hips, low back, erectors, lats etc do a bunch of work before you even get to the quads.

The fact that pulling from lower handles is more challenging, for most people, is irrelevant, as is the fact that there's not much carry over from quad biased trap bar deadlifts to pulling conventionally / hingeing…. At least, it's irrelevant if it's in your programming because it's there as a quad biased exercise.

If I was programming a glute or hamstring dominant movement with the trap bar, by the way, I'd potentially programme a stiff legged trap bar deadlift rather than a really conventional pull, and yes, I'd pull from the low handles.

If I was just looking for a trap bar deadlift that hit "a bit of everything", then I'd pull conventional from low handles.

In saying the above, do I do quad biased trap bar deadlifts still? No.

However fried your quads feel - and you can fry them, with sufficient overload and the appropriate tempo - it doesn't feel like a very efficient use of your time to do what is effectively a partial range quad dominant squat. I have opted for a high bar squat / heels elevated high bar squat / front squat for some time now, if I need a quad dominant compound movement. I don't believe these any better solely from a quad development point of view, to be honest, but I think the juice is worth the squeeze in terms of carryover to general health and fitness, I think a high bar squat to rock bottom is something I'd like maintain into old age.

It goes without saying, also, that most people who are pulling from high handles are not aware why they're doing it, they just know it's easier.

To bring in another movement… You can do a quad dominant leg press that, even if you're going deep, is also potentially a more limited range of motion. Some people will say it's like a partial squat. But you can do the quad dominant leg press after doing a bunch of other work, including compound movements, and whatever fatigue has been built up in my back, glutes, hamstrings, you're supported on the leg press so it can still have its choice as a high stability quad dominant movement you can put in later in a workout without much problem. So if I'm doing a quad focused workout, I might do my high bar squats or front squats, and I might then move onto higher stability options like a quad dominant leg press and/or leg curl.

Cill94 · 03-07-2024 08:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122335523#Comment_122335523

I don't believe these any better solely from a quad development point of view, to be honest

I think the fact neither of us do them shows we're mostly on the same page, but I disagree on the above. Because of how crap the range of motion is on a high handle trap bar deadlift.

The research is pretty clear at this point that a full range of motion, or at least doing the fully lengthened part of the ROM, is key for optimising growth. The high handle trap bar deadlift takes most people to what would be at best about a half squat range of motion.

So I think there's actually very good reason to believe that the exercises you mentioned like high bar or front squats done to full depth would do a lot more for quad development and overall hypertrophy.

I could however see the rationale of doing the low handles but with a deliberately low hip position to work the quads.

Black Sheep · 03-07-2024 10:11PM

I actually think that when we squat very deep, at the very bottom portion of the movement it's the adductors doing the most work, quads little to nothing, glutes a bit, and then glutes more as we approach parallel, and then it's hopefully the quads if cueing knees forward, torso upright and trying to maximise torque at the knee.

I do squat deep, as I said, but bearing in mind the above, deeper doesn't mean specifically more quads I don't think. More overall hypertrophy I would be more easily convinced of but that's slightly different.

Cill94 · 04-07-2024 12:34AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336864#Comment_122336864

I think from a mechanical standpoint, fully working the quads should come down to when your knee reaches max flexion. I think for most people that would be not until full depth in the squat.

That said, the problem with squats is that the back will usually fail first so you can't necessarily utilise that full ROM on the legs to its full potential. That's why I really like lunges as an accessory.

Mellor · 04-07-2024 08:42AM

@Black Sheep Is it worth pulling comments to a new thread to activate the forum? or are conversations surviving longer in the these general threads?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122334256#Comment_122334256

I wouldn't go as far as saying never use the high handles. But I think working towards the low handles should be the initial progression. When I see somebody lifting 180kg off the high handles but assumption is that there is not some underlying mobility issue and it's purely a ego thing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122335523#Comment_122335523

I think it's a mistake to categorise high vrs low handles as quad vrs hip. The handles used basically define ROM and while different muscles engage at different points of the hinge movement. The hip/quad/posterior bias is driven by basic form. I think low handles should be the target regardless of whether you are doing trapbar deadlifts or trapbar squats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336526#Comment_122336526

"Low handles with a low hip position" = Trap bar squat.
Hip Hips = Trapbar deadlift.

It's pretty similar to the difference between a conventional deadlift and a hack squat. Both same bar, same height, mechic driven by body position.

Depending on body proportions, I've seen people doing frap bar squats from a deficit in order to hit ATG type depth.

Cill94 · 04-07-2024 01:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122337534#Comment_122337534

I’d definitely agree that the trap bar’s muscles worked can be adjusted with the form you use. I’ve never used the low handle with hips low for quads, but I’d imagine it works quite well given the weight being in line with the lifters centre of mass.

Black Sheep · 04-07-2024 03:52PM

@Mellor - Re splitting the thread. Yeah, I can see it as a possibility, but I'm not the mod for this forum (I'm just Martial Arts) and I wouldn't interfere here. At this stage on boards my personal view of modding is the less the better, there's such limited traffic if at all possible, people should just be let speak, unless there's some kind of grievous abuse or something. I don't know that pruning this thread would lead to more conversation on the new thread.

Mellor · 05-07-2024 01:11AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338586#Comment_122338586

I don't use it either. I simply barbell squat and choose LB or HB as required. Just finished p a LB run, changing to LB for the next 16 weeks. But I do understand that a lot of people are not comfortable with BW+ on their back. Squat variations like Hack, Trap, etc where the load is below centre mass allow people to fail or bail easily. Which think is a legitimate use case.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122339474#Comment_122339474

Ah of course. For some reason I thought you were mod here too. nevermind in that case

Black Sheep · 05-07-2024 07:46AM

Safety bar squats are amazing for people who struggle with BBs, for whatever reason, as well.

In fact they're amazing for anyone TBH. I cycle between them and HB.

Must admit I've more or less stopped all LB, after years of it.

The only thing is a lot of gyms seem to have cheap SSBs that have handles perpendicular to the bar, and sleeves dropped but in line with the shaft. I may be explaining that badly but in the proper SSB from EliteFTS, Rogue and Blk Box, there is some funky arrangement of their relationship to each other that improves the ergonomics.

Mellor · 05-07-2024 10:23AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122341606#Comment_122341606

I’ve never used an SSB. No real reason why just never did. I considered switching recently, tried to Google the purpose of a SSB but couldn’t get a clear answer.

I actually stopped barbell squatting for a long time. Post knee surgery I slowly introduced unilateral, deep BW or machines.

Reintroduced barbells this year. LB to limit knee flexion. Slow linear progress up to PR-ish weights. Not the heaviest bar ever on my back but better depth. But…

…I just don’t like LB. Just find it kicks me out of position too much at max efforts. Sure it’s “stronger” under the rules of powerlifting. But if the goal is general strength, or strength for a sport, then PL rules are irrelevant.

So I’m back on the HB bandwagon as of this week.

Cill94 · 05-07-2024 02:06PM

For me unless you're a powerlifter, I think most people may as well make squats fairly quad heavy, so they provide a significantly different stimulus to deadlifts. High bar, zerchers squats, safety bar or front squats would be my preferences.

Black Sheep · 05-07-2024 02:19PM

The first reason to use an SSB is that it more or less completely relieves the issue of having to achieve a proper position for the straight barbell on your back. Whether low bar or high bar, this is something people struggle with. In the case of the low bar, a lot of people end up with shoulder and/or elbow issues over time, and although you can talk about fixing this, or avoiding it, the reality is that a lot of people switch to SSB because they can still squat heavy even if their shoulder were literally hanging together by a thread.

The second reason is that an SSB is a more quad biased than low bar, it's roughly equivalent to high bar squatting, and most people find it more comfortable at heavy loads than high bar. And as Cilian says I suspect most lifters should be squatting with more of a quad bias if they can.

Probably a lot of younger lifters don't see the need, or recognise the SSB as something that's relatively limited in its applications, but at a certain point it becomes more attractive.

As I said, I could potentially be back low bar squatting now but I just can't be bothered.

My issue with low bar is that for years I did it, and got relatively strong, but in hindsight my programming was far too posterior chain biased. I was low bar squatting, I was box squatting, I was deadlifting and my quads were completely neglected.

Rippetoe has a lot to answer for … A certain cohort of people like me learned to low bar first, and I wish someone had pushed me to spend at least as much time doing high bar, and I probably would have avoided a lot of grief.

Mellor · 06-07-2024 05:26AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122342975#Comment_122342975

That’s pretty much my logic. Also the deeper ROM of HB seems more practical for transfer to grappling and other sports.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122343054#Comment_122343054

My path to low bar first was similar. I got out when I started introducing oly lifts, abd starting tracking quad v hip and push v pull volumes

Mellor · 04-09-2024 04:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122342111#Comment_122342111

Follow this post. I switched back to HB as I said. Had just wrapped up a linear progression on low bar.
Kicked off with a HB test. Was about 85% of my LB max (tested same time), and if really honest, that LB max was slightly high. So prob closer to 90%

Follow that I ran Juggernaut Method from CWS/JTS. This program just seems to be the sweet spot between volume and intensity, for me. Great results.
Final phase now. Next week programming is for by pre-max above for 3x3. Followed by 108% of pre-max for reps.
I'll test max at the end of the month. Will be in the ball park of +20% on Squat equally lifetime PR for LB (but doing it HB)

Mr. CooL ICE · 05-09-2024 09:38AM

Don't forget that LB is only posterior chain dominant if your LB squat style is posterior chain dominant and that is is possible to have a posterior chain dominant HB squat too. Thinking along the lines of HB/SSB/front squat being quad dominant and LB being posterior dominant is trivialising things a bit.

Not all LB squats are performed Ripp style. If you look at many top IPF lifters, practically none squat Ripp style but most are quad dominant with a pretty vertical torso; looking almost as much as if they were HB. The likes of Ashton Rouska look like they're HB squatting due to how upright he stays and how much he sinks it. His quads are massive (he does train HB off season though).

Mellor · 05-09-2024 11:22AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122584365#Comment_122584365

Anything absolute statement has to generalise a bit. But the idea that LB = Hip and HB = Quad is not trying to claim that your LB is as hip dominant as everyone else’s. It’s about Your HB vrs Your LB imo.

In that no matter how quad dominant your LB is, your HB will be more so.

The likes of Ashton Rouska look like they're HB squatting due to how upright he stays and how much he sinks it

Sure, but we simply label all squats as one or the other. When in real terms it’s obviously multiple degrees along a spectrum.

Lifter with giant quads having a quad bias is not surprising. If he EKG’d his LB and HB squats, I’d still expect a clear difference.

Mellor · 29-09-2024 12:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122582024#Comment_122582024

Finished up this program last week and tested this weekend.

+20% on HB Squat, +15% on Bench and Press, +10% on Deadlift.
All lifetime PRs. Didn't fail any attempts so don't think any were actually 100%/RPE 10 efforts.
For sure more in, but they all hit night round numbers. In particular DL had more I think, but a 200kg PR hits those OCDs.

xckjoo · 29-09-2024 04:04PM

Giving GZCL Jacked and Tanned 2.0 a go. 1 week in, still getting my head around some of finer points of it and it's leaving me stiff as a board but I'm looking forward to next session tomorrow so that's a good sign.

Your strength and fitness programming in 2024

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