Your strength and fitness programming in 2024

Black Sheep

It feels like only last month I set up a thread about what programs people intended to follow in 2023... And here we are, in 2024... I'm a few months late, but this thread is to discuss what people are currently doing, or thinking about, in terms of programming.

I'll start...

Currently on week 11 of a 12 week programme called Diesel Mass, which was written by James Smith. It used a number of 3 week blocks, with different focuses (Isometric strength, eccentric strength, concentric strength etc). Fundamentally, it was upper/lower/upper/lower and had an explosive athletic movement to start, a main lift, and then accessories in circuit fashion.

Overall was so-so, nothing to write home about. My jumps did get better, everything else maybe a tiny improvement but nothing crazy.

Next program on the horizon is a new version of Westside for Skinny Bastards from Joe DeFranco. He is calling it WS4SB 3.5, and has said it will be old WS4SB programming with some tweaks.

Alf Veedersane

Working out how best to combine erg (rowing) and strength work...while working on the quad imbalance that a few years of hip troubles left me with.

Work travel limits opportunities to train, to a point, so 3 days a week and a sort of PPL structure but even when there is a focus on 1, I'll still do a few sets of each of the other 2.

foxsake

I also was using the w4sb template from nov2023 - although for the main lifts I was using the progression from defranco's build like a bad ass. which gave me 10 weeks cycle . this was 3 days a week and I also did 2 days k-1.

Ive now changed it as follows for this cycle in feb 2024.

• Upper max
• Lower max - squat and deadlift only
• repetition - full body working similar to upper repetition from W4SB but with quads/ham in there too.

Still using the sets/reps from build like a bad ass.

so its not really defrancos anymore . Its working in that I feel good and stronger and i'm enjoying it

The 1rm progressions are slow but at a rep level I feel a lot stronger. I'm not powerlifting so I'm good.

I'm not sure what my goals are if i have any other than showing up . I'm mid 40s so I'm not going for any world championships .

Mellor

Upping my training frequency for 2024. But it’s still a bit of a mix. Aiming for 7 sessions a week. Hitting 5-7. Only 2 are strength.

Still trying to optimise strength by targeting minimum effect dose volume. But it’s certainly not optimal for strength progress.

Had knee surgery a few years ago, then a knee injury last year. So have been doing squat/deadlift assistance only for a long time. Single leg stuff, front squats, machines. Have returned to barbell now. My max is crap. But depth was shockingly easy with shoes back on.

I half want to keep going, rebuild my base and maybe run juggarnaut.

but another little voice says screw it run smolov or Coan phillipi

Kamu

I'm running Jeff Nippard's 5 day Bodybuilding program, just finished week 6 of 10. It's an U/L/U/L/Arms+Weak point split.

I had to redo a couple of weeks already do to travel, visiting family and illness.

I'm also off in holidays for a week in a couple of weeks so will have to redo week 7 or 8 of the split. All in all probably going to take me 14 weeks to finish the 10 week program.

Will probably repeat the program with more emphasis on volume than weight as each exercise is a total of 3 sets. Will also do a proper cardio routine once I return from holiday.

I'm also doing an alternating 4 week fat loss/maintenance period. Down 5kg so far.

Black Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864915#Comment_121864915

This is his most recent pure bodybuilding programme?

I bought that, as I thought it was good value if you bought it in pre-sale, and got all the splits.

Haven't run it, however. I just can't commit to such a high frequency split. Even 4 days is pushing it for me at the moment.

Black Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121863998#Comment_121863998

As you're probably aware, there's a few different WS4SB variants.

One I always liked is WS4SB 3, which has an option for what he calls the "washed up meathead" template.

I ran it a few times as ME upper, ME lower, Repetition upper, and then for the optional fourth day, which he suggested as a vanity day, I would do full body and include extra quads and hamstring work. I only mention it as it actually sounds similar to your approach except you've put those in what was the repetition upper body day.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866268#Comment_121866268

WS3 was the most manageable. WS1 was similarly, basically the template for 3. WS2 was chaotic. Probably good for HS footballers, but not for gen pop.

I recently had a look at the original WS4SB article.

https://www.defrancostraining.com/westside-for-skinny-bastards-part1/

I found it interesting that one of the 17 year olds who improvements he referenced was Brian Cushing. Then in high school. Post article he was drafted by Texans, played pro, went on to be the S&C coach for the Texans.

Another was Jim Dray, went on to play in NFL, is not a coach for the bears.

Its a good program, but when your dealing with 17 years olds with that sort of potential, weighted knitted needles would get results.

foxsake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866268#Comment_121866268

yeah sorry i started on w4sb 3 and evolved a bit.

Kamu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866251#Comment_121866251

Yeah that's the one! I am lucky that I have spare time everyday and my gym is within a 10 minute walk of where I live.

I suppose since it's 5 days a week is why the sets remain constant at 3 per exercise.

I got an email from Jeff Nippard to say that he is doing a pre-sale on his Pure Bodybuilding Phase 2. Not particularly fond of the thought of buying what will most likely be a similar programme with just some exercise variations. However, I know myself that I am more likely to adhere to a program that I spent money on, so may be worth it.

nates

I am still hooked with Conjugate style training. ATM iam doing from the Westside Conjugate Club the "tactical" program.

Iam looking forward how the new WS4SB program look like.

A friend of mine is a hugh fan of the Power Athlete porgrams. In Winter he used their Hypertrophie program and in summer their

atheltic program. Iam unsure if i will give it a try in the near future.

Black Sheep

Well, I did the first day of WS4SB 3.5 on Saturday, but I can see the first week's programming, so I'll briefly outline the similarities/differences between this and WS4SB 3.

• There is one exercise prescription, it's not a template like WS4SB 3 where you'd select your exercises. It's assumed you can and will sub exercises if you need to, but they prescribe just one exercise in the programming. So, for example, the max effort upper body compound lift is a floor press. This is likely because the previous 12 weeks have been barbell flat benching. Probably giving the shoulders a break.
• It's still laid out ME upper, DE lower, Repetition upper, ME lower
• Reverse workout ordering is used, which is very common in DeFranco's programming now. Again, theoretically with the goal of being more joint friendly. To take the example of the ME upper day, DeFranco programmes an active mobility warm up (Rotator cuff, chest, shoulders tricep focus) and then he has a row and rear delt superset before the max effort floor presses. So you've got a big back pump before you approach the heavy pressing. The heavy pressing is up to 6RM for the day.
• There's otherwise a lot of the same accessories as earlier WS4SB... You have your two sets of max effort DB bench, 15-20 rep range, after the floor pressing, there's shrugs, curls etc.
• The dynamic lower day looks like it used to, as does the repetition day, for the most part, although again you've got back and rear delts before the high volume pressing on repetition day.
• ME lower day is also reverse ordered, and you'll do unilateral work and posterior chain work before doing your deadlifts as main ME lower movement.
• What's totally "new", aside from the reverse ordering, is that there's dynamic jumping work on ME lower day after the warm-up, as well as on the DE lower day. On DE lower day there's also some Achilles/foot strengthening small agility jump work before the main dynamic box jumps.

All in all, it's very like earlier WS4SB but the main change is the reverse ordering.

That may or may not feel better on your joints. It does affect the quality of your ME work, but again here DeFranco says if you persist with it and your work capacity improves it's no bad thing.

He has probably also decided that DE lower remains important even for non athletes and older folks. In the past he ditched that for the "washed up meathead" template, if you weren't an athlete anymore, but now he says that we lose power generation so quickly as we age, that he thinks everyone should be doing some power training in their programming, in the warm-ups if not on a dedicated day.

Not sure one way or the other, but all I'll say is my jumping has come on leaps and bounds the past year, excuse the pun. When I started it again, I realised "wow, I really haven't jumped higher than waist height in about ten years". It did make me have to re-learn that ability to commit.

Luxembourgo

I have been doing GMB Elements as back was beat up, rotator cuff injury etc, combined with Russian Fighter Pull Up programme.

Was feeling great, and went back to the barbells and a few kettlebell swings again, and back playing up again.

In more positive news Pull Ups up to 13 (not full extension from the video 😔)

Going to do another round of RFPU and GMB Integral Strength. It's not going to give me massive gains, but I think it will help my body with the basics.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121932933#Comment_121932933

Is it upper or lower back that’s playing up?

Playing up quickly after returning to barbell/kettkebells kinda pinpoints the issue.

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121933151#Comment_121933151

Lower, it's a long term thing, have had surgery on it, a weakness somewhere there

Tried physio, but seems to solve it

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121934213#Comment_121934213

Barbellds/Dumbells should strengthen and fix the weakness. But if they are aggravating your lower back, that suggests your form could be the issue.

Have you tried recording your lifts?

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121935398#Comment_121935398

I agree and you are right on the form as my flexibility especially hinge, trunk is very poor.

It's always the same place it gets hurt though. Going to give the body weight stuff a while with some increased mobility work and revisit later in the year.

Black Sheep

I agree with Mellor's post in general, but - kind of playing devil's advocate here - there are times when even with perfect form, something might aggravate you if the damage is already done.

For better or worse, if you have a low back or SI joint issue, it might be that something like pulling off the ground, conventional deadlift, is going to feel worse than a modification like pulling it off blocks, or doing a rack pull, trap bar deadlift with handles up, or maybe even pulling sumo. The combination of pulling from a higher position, and potentially a more upright back position certainly feels better on my SI joint.

I rotate conventional pulls off the ground in and out of my training these days. I just did 12 weeks of them, but now I can feel it's time for a break. I don't think, even with perfect form, it's something I need to keep in my training year round.

Cill94

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936797#Comment_121936797

Agree with this and also the weight. Something I've had to accept with my own back injury is that just because I can lift it, doesn't necessarily mean I should. I've had periods of needing to stay at the same weight for 2-3 weeks to not trigger symptoms.

Certainly if someone finds some exercises are easier to load than others, then they should stick with them.

Black Sheep

I have also been doing blocks of things like paused deadlifts and eccentric focus deadlifts. They both need very good form to do safely/well, but they do also allow you to use less weight on the bar, and I find that more forgiving.

I think the evidence is relatively clear that if you were healthy, you'd be better off not using training intensifiers like this, straight sets would be better overall. But basically I could do several weeks deadlifting this way, and progressively overload, and the weight on the bar will be modest and I feel less beaten up. If I just did straight reps and pushed the weight for the duration, then as you say, it feels like there comes a certain number where I will have symptoms flare up in following days.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121936797#Comment_121936797

That's fair. But I'd add the caveat that if you have an existing injury/issue, than is aggravated by the ROM of even "perfect" form, then that form is not perfect for you. Form should be reviewed within the limits of your personal mobility. That needs to happen.

If the issue is muscular, then then contracting the target muscles could even be an issue - but in that case working the same muscle in isolation, on a machine etc is also an issue. I'd say that is rarely confused with "X exercise hurts my Wazoo".

Either of the above scenario could be an issue, but that said, I'd guess that 90% of the time the issue is simply the person being pulled into a bad position.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121935992#Comment_121935992

If hinging is always hurting you, I'd start to suspect hat you hinge pattern is the issue. Most likely rounding you lower back and arching the weight as weel as hinging.

If you are targeting hamstrings (RDL, good mornings etc). Shorten the range so that your back stays completely flat. Pushing past that range is hurting you.

If you are targeting hips, bend you knees more. Release hamstring tension on the pelvis. Don't let tight hammies limit your hip hinge (when targeting hips)

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943958#Comment_121943958

Thanks totally agree with all that. I have rack pulled/box squatted for years due to issues. My whole posterior chain has taken a pounding over the years with ACL, Achilles Tendon, Slipped Disc, multiple hamstring injuries. It's probably about just knowing my limits 😂 and with age I'm getting more and more comfortable with that.

Thanks for the comments, always like this thread, it's interesting.

redzerredzer

Thanks to Brian? I have started this. I added my own twist by doing one week on followed by two weeks off.
2 full body days a week. All exercises 2 warm up sets and then 3x10 with a weight you struggle to do 10 with. When you can do 3x10 comfortably add weight next time. 

Day 1: Squat, bench, pull ups, curls and tricep push downs. 

Day 2: deadlift, rows, military press, curls and tricep push downs.

I also try to do limber 11 minus the foam rolling bits everyday. This workout was very popular about 12 years ago when boards fitness was a hive of activity. Does this workout stand the test of time? Would anyone suggest a there is a better flexibility workout?

Black Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974867#Comment_121974867

I still follow DeFranco's stuff, and basically the Limber 11 is still fine, but I think he'd say that there's a point where might want to consider individualising it, and varying it up a bit, if you've been repeating the same movements for a very long time. He has some current material on his IG that you could look at.

I'm not the biggest mobility guy in the world, but I do find it beneficial to do rear delt stuff in my warm-ups, and shoulder mobility stuff like wall slides or light behind the neck presses.

nates

@Black Sheep so whats block 2 be like?

Sometimes they mention their "big programs" like WS4SB 3.4, Goliath, Legend123 etc. but whats between this? Is the program than more or less Deload, or gap weeks? → Cant remember :(

I also like Limber 11 as warmup. I add 5-7 TGUs per side and 3*5 Pylopushups or Boxjumps.

Since i added Romwod in the Evening as (nearly) Daily evening Routine my mobility is getting better and better.

Its about 15-20 minutes and beside getting better mobility its nice for "calm down from the day"

Black Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033606#Comment_122033606

Block 2 for WS4SB 3.5 is the same layout as Block 1, but the exercise selection changed.

So the max effort movement has gone from floor press to bench press, and for the accessory work everything is still laid out the same in terms of body part, but the exercise changed. Different single leg variations, different curl variations and so on.

With a bit of time to digest the way this has panned out, my thoughts:-

PROS

The reverse ordering is probably not a bad idea for anyone whose shoulders gives them issues when benching. I like it less on the lower body days, I'd rather pull deadlifts first rather than after several sets of unilateral exercises that I've tried to push weight selection on.

CONS

I feel like DeFranco - in all of the recent programs - has probably strayed too far into the realm of choosing highly unstable movements and corrective exercises at the expense of remembering that a program must also contain stable, easy to progressively overload, "meat and potato" movements.

I'm conscious this is a slightly unfair criticism because a lot of people end up doing DeFranco programming because they have jacked up shoulders, or whatever, and he's very good at bringing people back to normal function.

With regard to what's between the 12 week programs… Nothing, really. There have been maybe 2 occasions where there was a "transition program" but where there's been something like that, it's rarely a deload, in fact they're usually higher volume.

The 12 week programs taper to a testing week of some kind, but generally they're pretty auto regulated in terms of what you're doing. You'll execute a "heaviest set for the day" any given workout, on a main lift, but that's not the same as having a target you must hit.

Some of the 12 week programs are more taxing than others, there are some that were very very corrective-heavy, a lot of unstable movements where not much big weight would be moved.

ava_johnson

I want to do a little more sports this year. I am looking for the best program for me

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122147227#Comment_122147227

Will depend on the sport. If you're new to working out, you should look for something easy, and avoid the advance stuff like badminton.

ava_johnson

In general, I understand that in order to improve everything I plan, I need to work hard on myself. But I started with what interests me the most. Recently I discovered a new type of workout. And I was very pleased, I love it when physical activity helps not only to keep the body in shape, but also helps to reboot and maintain mental health too

xckjoo

I've made a jump from strength focused to a bit of vanity muscle building this year and been running one of the Renaissance Periodization programs for the last few months. Gotta say I've found it good. Noticeable increase in muscles size since starting it.

I'm at the Resensitization cycle but also have to take a few weeks off all training for life reasons so trying to decide do I start back at the resensitization or skip straight to cycle 1 again. Guess I've some time to think it over

Cill94

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122277689#Comment_122277689

Resensitisation is just their terminology for a deload. If you've taken a few weeks off, then your body will be certainly fully deloaded / resensitised already, so doing it again would be a big waste of time.

redzerredzer

I’m doing a physio programmed upper body day to fix arm and elbow issue. There’s quite a few exercises in it so I don’t have time to do full body workout as I have always done.
So for the first time ever I did lower/ leg day workout.
Would anyone care to critique my amateur programming?
* I’ve had lower back and hip injuries so am weak and cautions at lower workouts.

Kettlebell Swings 3x15
Trap Bar Deadlift 5x5
Bodyweight Walking lunges 3x 10 each side
Bodyweight Bulgarian Split Squat 3x8 each side

Thanks

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321029#Comment_122321029

You might get more response in it's own thread. But as a start, a few questions;

What are your goals? Lose weight, get stronger, etc

5x5 deadlifts is typical strength programming. But its the only one tat is 5 reps there.
Unilateral single leg squatty stuff if good. But normal squats with the above as assistance?

redzerredzer

thanks for reply.
goal is strength for the purpose of injury prevention and mobility.

Black Sheep

I'm three months back to doing quite HIT style bodybuilding.

Just needed a change from Joe D programming. Wanted more basic lifts and to just be adding weight.

This is 3-4 days a week, body part split and quite low volume.

I keep movements the same for six weeks and progressive overload, then switch things up.

So far going pretty well, haven't been this strong in a while.

Chest and back today.. this week is going to be (1) chest and back, (2) legs and (3) shoulders and arms. If I do a 4 day week I would either do a quad dominant day and a ham dominant day or sometimes ill combine back and hams and do stand alone shoulders and arms days.

Anyway, today was

Bench 1x3-6, 1x8-12

Incline bench 1x8-12

Wide pushups 3 sets

Wide grip pullups 5 sets

DB single arm row (lat focus) 1x8-12, 1x12-16

Chest supported DB rows 1x8-12, 1x12-16

And cheeky bonus forearms.. Reverse ez curls, 3x8-12

All the above are the top sets. You've got a heavyier top set then a back off set but both trying to push it.

3 warm ups on the first movement and after that usually just 1 is enough.

Low volume but takes a little over an hour. I still do a Joe DeFanco style warmup first and get an upper back pump going. Some rotator cuff stuff too.

Logbook essential for this.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321484#Comment_122321484

Thanks.

Deadlifts 5x5 are good. This is your main hips/posterior strength builder.
Watch you form and progress the load slowly, and you'll build a stonger back.
Kettlebell swings are a good hip assistance lift. But be careful. It's easy to get away with bad reps with less challenging load. Don't jerk you lower back, hinge from the hips. Good alternates are Hip Thrusts/GHR/Reverse Hyper (if availible).
Walking lunges are fine, but at bodyweight these are more aligned to warm-up/assistance. Ok to keep in there but I'd add a main lift.
Split Squat can could be a main strength move, but at 3x8 they are more aligned with assistance. Also more suited to that range that linear progression of 5x5. Again, total fine to keep in there.
Squat. This is the main lift I'd add. Any big squat variation. Back squat, front squat, safety bar squat, hack squat if necessary (in the case of the last I'd change my deadlift to traditional bar)

Putting that together;

• Kettle Bell Swings 1-2 x 15-20 (Light load, this is a warm up)
• Deadlifts 5 x 5 (main hip lift)
• Walking Lunges 1-2 x 10-15 (BW/Light load, this is a warm up)
• Squat 5 x 5 (main quad lift)
• Hip Thrusts/GHR 3 x 8 (hip assistance)
• Split Squat 3 x 8 (quad assistance)

redzerredzer

thanks very much. Appreciate the program.
I’m nervous switching to tradition deadlift as I have some bad history there. I’m more comfortable with trap bar

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122326978#Comment_122326978

Trap bar is fine. That was only a suggestion if you went with hack squat as the squat variation as its similar to trap bar deadlift. But on second thought, that's really only a superficial resemblance.

Hack squat is still very much a quad dominant squat mechanic. Trap bar deadlift should be a hip/hinge. Perfectly fine to do hack squats over rack squats and keep the trap bar deads.
I've also seen people do "trap bar squats".

Cill94

I’m a strong believer that trap bar deads should really only be performed with the low handles.

High handles is too upright to really challenge the back/hips, and a terrible range of motion when compared to squat variations.

The fact most high handle trap bar lifters suck at conventional deadlifts shows how little it does for the hinging muscles.

Black Sheep

I did do quad biased trap bar deadlifts in some previous programming, and they have their advocates.

Sometimes I was doing them one day, and on another day I was doing a glute hamstring biased trap bar deadlift, where I was pulling from low handles.

If you are actively trying to bias the quads, if you experiment with pulling high versus low, it becomes pretty clear why you'd pick one over the other.

If your goal for that movement is quad development you don't want to pull from the low handles and have your glutes, hips, low back, erectors, lats etc do a bunch of work before you even get to the quads.

The fact that pulling from lower handles is more challenging, for most people, is irrelevant, as is the fact that there's not much carry over from quad biased trap bar deadlifts to pulling conventionally / hingeing…. At least, it's irrelevant if it's in your programming because it's there as a quad biased exercise.

If I was programming a glute or hamstring dominant movement with the trap bar, by the way, I'd potentially programme a stiff legged trap bar deadlift rather than a really conventional pull, and yes, I'd pull from the low handles.

If I was just looking for a trap bar deadlift that hit "a bit of everything", then I'd pull conventional from low handles.

In saying the above, do I do quad biased trap bar deadlifts still? No.

However fried your quads feel - and you can fry them, with sufficient overload and the appropriate tempo - it doesn't feel like a very efficient use of your time to do what is effectively a partial range quad dominant squat. I have opted for a high bar squat / heels elevated high bar squat / front squat for some time now, if I need a quad dominant compound movement. I don't believe these any better solely from a quad development point of view, to be honest, but I think the juice is worth the squeeze in terms of carryover to general health and fitness, I think a high bar squat to rock bottom is something I'd like maintain into old age.

It goes without saying, also, that most people who are pulling from high handles are not aware why they're doing it, they just know it's easier.

To bring in another movement… You can do a quad dominant leg press that, even if you're going deep, is also potentially a more limited range of motion. Some people will say it's like a partial squat. But you can do the quad dominant leg press after doing a bunch of other work, including compound movements, and whatever fatigue has been built up in my back, glutes, hamstrings, you're supported on the leg press so it can still have its choice as a high stability quad dominant movement you can put in later in a workout without much problem. So if I'm doing a quad focused workout, I might do my high bar squats or front squats, and I might then move onto higher stability options like a quad dominant leg press and/or leg curl.

Cill94

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122335523#Comment_122335523

I don't believe these any better solely from a quad development point of view, to be honest

I think the fact neither of us do them shows we're mostly on the same page, but I disagree on the above. Because of how crap the range of motion is on a high handle trap bar deadlift.

The research is pretty clear at this point that a full range of motion, or at least doing the fully lengthened part of the ROM, is key for optimising growth. The high handle trap bar deadlift takes most people to what would be at best about a half squat range of motion.

So I think there's actually very good reason to believe that the exercises you mentioned like high bar or front squats done to full depth would do a lot more for quad development and overall hypertrophy.

I could however see the rationale of doing the low handles but with a deliberately low hip position to work the quads.

Black Sheep

I actually think that when we squat very deep, at the very bottom portion of the movement it's the adductors doing the most work, quads little to nothing, glutes a bit, and then glutes more as we approach parallel, and then it's hopefully the quads if cueing knees forward, torso upright and trying to maximise torque at the knee.

I do squat deep, as I said, but bearing in mind the above, deeper doesn't mean specifically more quads I don't think. More overall hypertrophy I would be more easily convinced of but that's slightly different.

Cill94

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336864#Comment_122336864

I think from a mechanical standpoint, fully working the quads should come down to when your knee reaches max flexion. I think for most people that would be not until full depth in the squat.

That said, the problem with squats is that the back will usually fail first so you can't necessarily utilise that full ROM on the legs to its full potential. That's why I really like lunges as an accessory.

Mellor

@Black Sheep Is it worth pulling comments to a new thread to activate the forum? or are conversations surviving longer in the these general threads?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122334256#Comment_122334256

I wouldn't go as far as saying never use the high handles. But I think working towards the low handles should be the initial progression. When I see somebody lifting 180kg off the high handles but assumption is that there is not some underlying mobility issue and it's purely a ego thing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122335523#Comment_122335523

I think it's a mistake to categorise high vrs low handles as quad vrs hip. The handles used basically define ROM and while different muscles engage at different points of the hinge movement. The hip/quad/posterior bias is driven by basic form. I think low handles should be the target regardless of whether you are doing trapbar deadlifts or trapbar squats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122336526#Comment_122336526

"Low handles with a low hip position" = Trap bar squat.
Hip Hips = Trapbar deadlift.

It's pretty similar to the difference between a conventional deadlift and a hack squat. Both same bar, same height, mechic driven by body position.

Depending on body proportions, I've seen people doing frap bar squats from a deficit in order to hit ATG type depth.

Cill94

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122337534#Comment_122337534

I’d definitely agree that the trap bar’s muscles worked can be adjusted with the form you use. I’ve never used the low handle with hips low for quads, but I’d imagine it works quite well given the weight being in line with the lifters centre of mass.

Black Sheep

@Mellor - Re splitting the thread. Yeah, I can see it as a possibility, but I'm not the mod for this forum (I'm just Martial Arts) and I wouldn't interfere here. At this stage on boards my personal view of modding is the less the better, there's such limited traffic if at all possible, people should just be let speak, unless there's some kind of grievous abuse or something. I don't know that pruning this thread would lead to more conversation on the new thread.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122338586#Comment_122338586

I don't use it either. I simply barbell squat and choose LB or HB as required. Just finished p a LB run, changing to LB for the next 16 weeks. But I do understand that a lot of people are not comfortable with BW+ on their back. Squat variations like Hack, Trap, etc where the load is below centre mass allow people to fail or bail easily. Which think is a legitimate use case.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122339474#Comment_122339474

Ah of course. For some reason I thought you were mod here too. nevermind in that case

Black Sheep

Safety bar squats are amazing for people who struggle with BBs, for whatever reason, as well.

In fact they're amazing for anyone TBH. I cycle between them and HB.

Must admit I've more or less stopped all LB, after years of it.

The only thing is a lot of gyms seem to have cheap SSBs that have handles perpendicular to the bar, and sleeves dropped but in line with the shaft. I may be explaining that badly but in the proper SSB from EliteFTS, Rogue and Blk Box, there is some funky arrangement of their relationship to each other that improves the ergonomics.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122341606#Comment_122341606

I’ve never used an SSB. No real reason why just never did. I considered switching recently, tried to Google the purpose of a SSB but couldn’t get a clear answer.

I actually stopped barbell squatting for a long time. Post knee surgery I slowly introduced unilateral, deep BW or machines.

Reintroduced barbells this year. LB to limit knee flexion. Slow linear progress up to PR-ish weights. Not the heaviest bar ever on my back but better depth. But…

…I just don’t like LB. Just find it kicks me out of position too much at max efforts. Sure it’s “stronger” under the rules of powerlifting. But if the goal is general strength, or strength for a sport, then PL rules are irrelevant.

So I’m back on the HB bandwagon as of this week.

Cill94

For me unless you're a powerlifter, I think most people may as well make squats fairly quad heavy, so they provide a significantly different stimulus to deadlifts. High bar, zerchers squats, safety bar or front squats would be my preferences.

Black Sheep

The first reason to use an SSB is that it more or less completely relieves the issue of having to achieve a proper position for the straight barbell on your back. Whether low bar or high bar, this is something people struggle with. In the case of the low bar, a lot of people end up with shoulder and/or elbow issues over time, and although you can talk about fixing this, or avoiding it, the reality is that a lot of people switch to SSB because they can still squat heavy even if their shoulder were literally hanging together by a thread.

The second reason is that an SSB is a more quad biased than low bar, it's roughly equivalent to high bar squatting, and most people find it more comfortable at heavy loads than high bar. And as Cilian says I suspect most lifters should be squatting with more of a quad bias if they can.

Probably a lot of younger lifters don't see the need, or recognise the SSB as something that's relatively limited in its applications, but at a certain point it becomes more attractive.

As I said, I could potentially be back low bar squatting now but I just can't be bothered.

My issue with low bar is that for years I did it, and got relatively strong, but in hindsight my programming was far too posterior chain biased. I was low bar squatting, I was box squatting, I was deadlifting and my quads were completely neglected.

Rippetoe has a lot to answer for … A certain cohort of people like me learned to low bar first, and I wish someone had pushed me to spend at least as much time doing high bar, and I probably would have avoided a lot of grief.