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Interesting articles

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  • Registered Users Posts: 44 kenny80




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    All very true. I couldn't have put it better myself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,079 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭sparky42


    it’s not like it is a surprise to literally anyone with even a passing awareness of European defence matters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 kenny80


    No its not indeed, nice to see it been shoved in there faces tho



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭sparky42


    It could be plastered on every house in Ireland, it won't make a bit of difference.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 394 ✭✭vswr


    iReLaNd Is NeUtRaL



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,314 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    The only politicians that care are the ones which will have a public tantrum should anyone attempt at giving the Defence Forces 2% of the GDP.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,561 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    2% of Irish GDP would be over €11 Billion.

    For comparable countries; Denmark spends 8 billion, Portugal 4 Billion, and Austria 4 billion or so also.

    Thats the sort of ballpark we need to be in, and even at that, it will take years to build up the capacity to spend that sort of budget effectively. I've said it many times before, Ireland's DF issues are not financial, they are structural and managerial.

    But 11 Billion in 2024 terms? Not a snowballs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 354 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    issue is at this point the absorption capability does not exist with the erosion in man power over the past decade or so. Defence is hi tech now, we need to catch up, but the skills and boots are not there. Maybe the €11 bn means we could get in contractors instead for the whole job ….



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Technical point of course that neither Portugal or Austria are spending the 2% either, with Portugal circa 1.4%, and Austria just 1%, if they were hitting the 2% both would be at or about the danish level. And given NATO is now pushing for 2.5, both Denmark and Portugal would be moving closer to that 11 billion figure if they were to attempt to meet it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,720 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Whats the metric ireland use, ? Adjusted gnp ? Anyway we: re no where near 2 % of that either ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭tippilot


    It would take years to be able to spend 4 billion?

    Such is the equipment deficit, you could spend €4 billion in the morning and not make a big impact on current capability gaps.

    The issue we have now is spend, or lack of it. Behind the scenes structural changes are great for box ticking and producing glossy documents that shout about your "achievements". The fact is there are no active equipment programs out to tender. They are advancing nothing in terms of glaring capability gaps. Without a minister, the Dept are operating in an oversight vacuum. Sec Gens who need notes to know the size of the helicopter fleet. Looking for pats on the back for handing back unspent budget.

    Heads should be rolling at this point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,970 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I believe the Metric they use is what is the bare min we have to do divided by 5



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I agree. I could spend 4 billion by lunchtime today. Say 1 to 1.5 billion on 18 decent jet aircraft plus training spares and ammo. Another 1 billion on 2 fairly basic corvettes. And what do you reckon it would cost for a half a dozen self propelled 155mm artillery pieces? There's most of the money gone!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,561 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    So in the DF, today, where would you....

    a) get the people to form permanent project teams for such grand acquisitions?

    b) get the naval architects, aeronautical engineers and staff officers to work on the ground with the builders, all of which would be overseas

    c) get the spare officers, NCOs and technicians to go away to train on the acquistions, to bring back the knowledge to begin conversion for the personnel at home?

    d) get the personnel at home to undertake that training and man the assets?

    You're probably talking 2,000 people just to on-board the capital you have mentioned above.

    Do you see know what people mean about capacity?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,970 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I think there is absolute absence of urgency in alls aspects of irish life at the moment what ever has happened. In the 50s we built the cabras if this world. In the 70s we built the then RTCs and in the late 90s and 00s we built the motorway network.

    Today we as nation seam to be crippled with inaction



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,561 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Completely agree.

    If oftens takes "official" Ireland being embarrassed into social change for anything major to happen, this is no different.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,882 ✭✭✭Alkers


    Very interesting, I haven't read the codf document in some time but do any of the analysis or recommendations address the dept or are they all focused on the df itself?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,970 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    That would sit a precedent the civil service could not allow



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 394 ✭✭vswr


    there could easily be a Primary radar program in place in conjunction with AirNav Ireland, to put in PSR Heads in Malin/Mt Gabriel/Doonacarton (or Woodcock/Mt Gabriel/Doonacarton)…

    This stuff is trivial and can be subbed out quite easily, with project staff in AirNav/DF required for integration and V&V.

    This would be the precursor to future air defence plans.

    Alternative, is getting some medium range Giraffes with sea tracking capability.

    Some additional SAM and SAS missile systems, you're making leaps and bounds ahead of what has been done the last few years…

    Re: the 2% NATO funding. With the addition of Hybrid warfare theatre into NATO, there are some camps arguing Ireland is already close to 1% with current protections of infrastructure and supply chains which feed into NATO use, will be interesting to see if that can be argued as the case….



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭sparky42


    unless you are throwing the Garda budget in somehow, it’s beyond hard to see how you get anywhere close to 1%, no matter which top line figure you use.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Ah God love ya! Sure you're talking through your arse again!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,970 ✭✭✭roadmaster




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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I'm not sure I understand the primary focus of the article. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs isn't in the US' chain of command either. It bypasses the chiefs and goes from the President to SecDef to the CoComs. This seems no different to the apparently terrible situation the Irish chief is in.

    If the Naval Service requires permission from the Defence Dept. to move a ship or the Army to move a vehicle, I suspect the problem is somewhere else.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    That's a different issue. An almost identical graph can be used to show the US chain of command to be bypassing the chiefs of the services. Replace CoS with CJC and the D/ACOS positions with the service chiefs. Just the US is a tad bigger so instead of brigades, there are combatant commanders, and more of them. The Chiefs don't issue orders to the forces, they are administrators and advisors, which seems to be the main crux of the perceived problem that the Irish Times article is meant to fix.

    On the other matter, does not Canada have a unified control system which works?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,970 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Looking at that flow chart no wonder you have Lt/Cols aproaching Tds about future roles within the new structure.

    I belive its not just the army that is going to have an issue with to many Commadants & Lt/Cols but the air corps as well.

    Is there anything to be said for having Flying warrant officers so the lads and ladies that want to fly only become WOs and the ones that want to get extra pips on the shoulders just except as part of the process they will have to fly desks aswell?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,970 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Its behind a paywall so i wont post the link but our Jnr Minister of Defence who has Zero powers or role with the department of defence is saying in the Indo to day defence spending should be doubled along with a 12 ship navy and combat aircraft.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,561 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Yeah, thats LoA3. So?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 257 ✭✭mupper2



    It's unusual they'd let her do a kite flying article in a major newspaper on a Sunday….doubly so since there are 2 articles.



    We need to double defence spending to €3bn a year so we can defend ourselves’

    The job of Minister of State for European
    Union Affairs and Defence comes with the added role of being Ireland’s
    designated Minister for the Future in Europe. There’s a minister for the
    future in all other EU nations too.

    At a recent meeting of Europe ministers
    from across the EU, we tried to talk about the future.
    We initially focused on green issues —
    until my Lithuanian colleague, Simonas Satunas, interrupted to ask were
    we talking about a future of Europe in which Ukraine had won, or in
    which Ukraine had lost.Germany’s defence minister says Europe must be ready for war before the end of the decade He said these were completely different
    scenarios, with completely different prospects for Europe, for
    democracy, for public finances, for the functioning of the European
    Union.

    It stopped the conversation in its tracks
    — because he was right. It was the only question we should have been
    discussing.
    We in Ireland have the luxury of living
    as far away from Russia as you can get, while remaining in Europe. From
    here, it can be hard to grasp the day-to-day pressure on the eastern
    front and what that is going to mean for our participation in
    Europe.

    We can forget the scale of the conflict
    until something horrifying makes the front pages — such as last Monday’s
    attack on the Okhmatdyt children’s hospital in central Kyiv.



    The war isn’t limited to Ukraine. It’s clear that the Black Sea region is of more importance to the EU than before.

    The Baltic states are dealing with hybrid warfare in the form of
    relentless Russian cyber-attacks and weaponised migration, whereby
    asylum seekers are taken by bus through Belarus and left at the borders.

    Moldova is continuing to face Russian attempts at destabilisation ahead
    of its upcoming elections and a referendum in the autumn on the
    country’s EU membership.

    There is no doubting the sense of urgency in continental Europe.
    Germany’s defence minister, Boris Pistorius, has said that Europe must
    be ready for war before the end of the decade.The fundamental duty of any state is the protection of its territory and its people
    We don’t want to have this conversation, but we must. The circumstances
    have changed. We have enjoyed a peace dividend from the creation of the
    EU — but over the past 10 years, since Russia’s invasion of Crimea, the
    security landscape has changed and we have to adapt. As we did with
    Covid. As we did with Brexit.

    In Europe, the far right is enjoying increasing success and tends to be
    sympathetic to Vladimir Putin. Even though France’s National Rally party
    failed to win a majority in last weekend’s elections, there is a strong
    possibility that its leader, Marine Le Pen, will win the presidency in
    2027.

    In Germany, the Alternative for Germany (AfD) party — which is too far to the right even for Le Pen — is growing in strength.

    ​It is these changing circumstances in Europe to which we must adapt.

    Earlier this month the Dáil voted for several government defence motions
    including approval for Ireland to join the European Defence Agency
    cyber defence exercises and approval to join an EU defence cooperation
    project relating to critical seabed infrastructure protection.




    These actions will help build our Defence Forces’ ability to address risks and enhance cooperation with our EU partners.






    We spend about €1.2bn (or 0.23pc of GDP) on defence. Nato members have a
    target of spending 2pc of GDP, or almost 10 times as much. Or consider
    another neutral country, Austria, which spends €3.3bn (or 0.8pc of GDP)
    on defence.

    Russia, meanwhile, is now spending 7.1pc of GDP on defence — or, more accurately, on attack.

    The extensive Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces, published
    in 2022, found that the existing level of preparedness and spending
    would “leave the Defence Forces unable to conduct a meaningful defence
    of the State against a sustained act of aggression from a conventional
    military force”.

    ​In 2022, Ireland took the first major step toward ramping up our defence capabilities.




    The Cabinet took the decision to increase defence spending from €1.1bn
    to €1.5bn annually by 2028 (at January 2022 prices), the largest
    increase in the defence budget in the history of the State.

    The Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces laid out three
    possible tiers of defence spending, or levels of ambition: the first was
    to retain the existing capability, which would leave the State with
    woefully inadequate defences; the second (which was ultimately chosen)
    allowed for a significant upgrading of capability, including hiring an
    additional 2,000 personnel, both civil and military, above the current
    staffing of 9,500.The world has changed and will continue to change. We must adapt and react
    But there was also the third option — “developing full-spectrum defence
    capabilities to protect Ireland and its people to an extent comparable
    to similar sized countries in Europe”.

    This would include a fleet of at least 12 naval ships plus combat aircraft.

    This third option would come at a cost of almost €3bn annually, roughly
    double the current target. If that sounds like a lot, consider that
    €23.5bn is budgeted for the health service this year.




    I believe €3bn is a target we now need to be working steadily toward.
    The fundamental duty of any state is the protection of its territory and
    its people. This does not mean abandoning neutrality or joining Nato,
    it simply means being in a position to defend ourselves.

    Last year Denmark cancelled a public holiday that it had had since the
    17th century. It was cancelled to raise €427m so it could increase its
    defence spending more quickly. Denmark is not on the front line but it
    understands the danger.

    In Ireland, meanwhile, last year the Government introduced a new public holiday in recognition of Covid.

    The world has changed and will continue to change. We must adapt and react accordingly.

    ​Jennifer Carroll MacNeill is Fine Gael Minister of State with responsibility for EU Affairs and Defence



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    GOod for her! Great to see some politicians talking a bit of common sense about this issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,720 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I dont disagree that we need to think seriously about defence and defence budgets,

    But knee jerk reactions like moving to a 12 ship naval service , so more fishery patrol vessels? , and we cant even crew what we've got , and have no way of monitoring or defending undersea pipelines and cables..

    Same with the air corp , a few newer helos are needed to replace the current ones , and we dont even have primary radar to see or know whats happening in our skys ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭sparky42


    interesting, is this the first suggestion from a sitting minister (even if she doesn’t have any powers) backing LoA3 on the record? Interesting timing as well in the run up to the budget, is it kite flying for finally starting even an above inflation increase?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭sparky42


    not sure if it’s paywall Ed or not, but according to the Sunday Times the Gardaí are apparently “alarmed” at the idea of ending ATCP roles like the large cash in transit protection, or the Portlaoise role. Seems it’s impossible that their armed units could be used for such roles….

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/b735cdba-75c3-435c-b1db-38aabde37d3b?shareToken=a0d7e136f14655181ef57cc9be703d45



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭Notmything


    Alarmed that they might have to do it themselves.

    Done enough time in the hotel to be able to say it's time the army were pulled, although the few extra euro was nice even if the tax man took much of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,970 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    It looks like AGS are letting it be publicy known they dont want any of he armys ATCP duties.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,063 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Well feck them tbh, it’s not the job of the DF either, or at least shouldn’t be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,970 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Who is the driving force behind this bill is it the Department or our elected officals?

    https://www.thejournal.ie/defence-bill-council-of-state-president-michael-d-higgins-6436848-Jul2024/



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    TIs a bleedin storm in a teacup. More important issues to be addressed in my opinion…..such as acquiring about 18 fighters, a proper airlift capability and couple of heavily armed corvettes and one of the Gotland class submarines for starters. I can't see what yer man up in the park has to bring to the party that is particularly important….



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,561 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The latter is preferable, as it avoids the seal of constitutionality that results from a Presidential referral. RACO and PDFORRA can then take a supreme court action of their own and hopefully succeed. It is unnecessary overreach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,561 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The President has signed the Bill, so creating the Defence (Amendment) Act, 2024, without reference to the Supreme Court.

    And so a challenge taken by the representative bodies must now be likely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,841 ✭✭✭✭Esel
    Not Your Ornery Onager


    I thought I heard on RTE news that the criticism section would be watered down in some way?

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,079 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Civil service had similar put in about 20 years ago and never a peep out of the unions.

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,561 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    But the Civil Service Unions were and remain a core pillar of ICTU, with the benefits of full association.

    Not so the DF representative groups.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,561 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I was referring to the public service cohort in general, including nurses and teachers, rather than just civil service officers.

    But thanks, as always, pedantic Pete.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,079 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Nurses, teachers, and other public servants aren't subject to that restriction so why are you (now) mentioning them?

    In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,561 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Indeed. Dickhead certainly does mean a thing.

    In other news, the reelected President von der Leyen has outlined her programme for the 5 year term, including this right at the top.

    It will certainly make defence a hot topic, and an issue our politicians cannot equivocate over, as we head towards our general election and beyond.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Doing a little self-promotion.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,970 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I seen at the end of the video the Sgt Major mentions the Jaguar & Boxer. Have they been looking at them as mowag replacements?



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