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Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,577 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Another bad read.

    You deleted the comment in a reply to me. I asked you ‘did YOU’ realise it was a personal attack.
    What I claimed about myself has nothing to do with what YOU did.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,672 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    You'd rather a retired billionaire in a multi-million euro mansion pay nothing and a bunch of 20 year olds scraping together rent in a houseshare pay for his local services instead?

    No of course not, that's just daft.

    While I know some people put forth the definition, I reject it. A wealth tax can not be regressive by a sane reading of what it means - a wealth tax does not cause a higher burden on those with less wealth.

    It's an exact definition, you can't reject it or not believe in it like it's a religion. Feel free to argue that it's a "good tax" and by all means support the tax and the parties that introduced it but don't be trying to convince people that a millionaire living in a house beside a retired old lady on the state pension paying the same bill amounts to a progressive tax

    Even google disagrees. If you google the first 5 definitions of regressive tax

    A regressive tax is a type of tax that is assessed regardless of income, in which low- and high-income earners pay the same dollar amount. A regressive tax is one that is applied uniformly regardless of income, as opposed to a progressive tax, which is based on income [investopedia]

    A regressive tax is a tax imposed in such a manner that the tax rate decreases as the amount subject to taxation increases [wikipedia]

    A regressive tax is one where the average tax burden decreases with income. Low-income taxpayers pay a disproportionate share of the tax burden [taxfoundation.org]

    tax that imposes a smaller burden (relative to resources) on those who are wealthier. [britanica]

    A regressive tax may seem to be an equitable form of taxation because everyone, regardless of income level, pays the same fixed amount [IRS]



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    If you buy a property you should be able to afford to live in that property. That's fairly basic

    If you can't afford to live in the then don't buy it and buy a smaller one, LPT is only one part of house ownership, if the house is too big for the person wages then they won't be able to afford to heat it etc

    The LPT as I said already means all those millionaires hiding money have to pay it, which means the people in the area get the benefit of that tax, otherwise those people would pay nothing in Ireland

    It is stupid to remove it, the sort of stupid stuff you see from Sinn Fein



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    A regressive tax is a type of tax that is assessed regardless of income, in which low- and high-income earners pay the same dollar amount. A regressive tax is one that is applied uniformly regardless of income, as opposed to a progressive tax, which is based on income [investopedia]

    A regressive tax is a tax imposed in such a manner that the tax rate decreases as the amount subject to taxation increases [wikipedia]

    A regressive tax is one where the average tax burden decreases with income. Low-income taxpayers pay a disproportionate share of the tax burden [taxfoundation.org]

    tax that imposes a smaller burden (relative to resources) on those who are wealthier. [britanica]

    A regressive tax may seem to be an equitable form of taxation because everyone, regardless of income level, pays the same fixed amount [IRS]

    The second and fourth of these directly contradict your point, the fifth isn't relevant to wealth taxes as everyone does not pay the same fixed amount, and the third one I would say is a poor definition as low-income taxpayers also, generally, have low wealth absent the very wealthy who often have no, or hidden income.

    So your quick googling has not helped your case that much.

    There is no one set definition, the question at hand is whether you consider something regressive or progressive based on resources (which includes wealth) or merely income. Considering it merely based on income is often largely the same thing, but when it comes to issues such as a wealth tax/property tax it obviously is not a good proxy.

    No of course not, that's just daft.

    It is the definition of progressive taxation that you are putting forth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,672 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    That's all arguments for having a property tax. Which I don't agree with, but I do accept they are at least true to life.

    It is a regressive tax, however, some on here are trying to argue it isn't. For every taxation there should be income based exemptions. Say for example somebody who bought a modest house for €250k. Their tax bill is €225 (+/- the council loading) per year. Say that person lost their job in the next recession. Their income drops to €0 but their tax bill is still €225

    They could, of course, sell the house, move elsewhere, maybe to somewhere nowhere near employment opportunities or miles away from the childs school and effectively start their lives all over again. That is a solution but I don't think, for society, that it's a good one



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,672 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I think you missed the point above. We aren't talking about wealth taxes, we are talking about LPT and Water charges

    It is the definition of progressive taxation that you are putting forth.

    So a progressive way of taxing that millionaire and those lads in their 20s would be to tax their income, at a %, ie the one who earns more, pays more.

    Should somebody earning €1m living in a mansion worth €3bn by the beach pay more tax than somebody earning the same money in a terraced house in a small town? To me, the answer is no!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    LPT is a form of wealth tax. It's not a great one, but it is one.

    Nonetheless, the tax on the wealth/asset increases as the value of the tax base increases in Ireland, it is by economic definition a progressive system. It is progressive on wealth. Income does not and should not come into the equation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,672 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    If you're going to make that argument, is there any regressive taxes in Ireland by your definition?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It's not "my" definition, it is the same as several of the definitions you posted yourself. How the term is used in a colloquially sense and outside the realm of economists is different of course and there is no fixed definition there though it is often, but wrongly in my view, based purely on income.

    Technically any flat tax is regressive (LPT is not flat).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,298 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    More nonsense. A tax on an asset is not a tax on income.

    I despair at the lack of basic economic knowledge in public debate.

    The LPT is a progressive tax on wealth. End of.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,298 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    But LPT isn't a tax on income, it is a tax on wealth. Only rich people have wealth, therefore it is a progressive tax.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,298 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    No, it isn't the same figure, because the amount changes depending on how valuable your house is.

    A rich man with a huge mansion in south Dublin pays an awful lot more than a poorer man with a small apartment in a rural town.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,298 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    VAT is sometimes considered to be a regressive tax, but because many essentials are zero-rated, it is only mildly regressive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,298 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Their income doesn't drop to zero if they lose their job.

    In fact, with the new social welfare system, for the first six months, they get a decent income.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,298 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is fair.

    We are getting to the stage now where we cannot believe a word out of an online supporter, even when they are claiming that they are giving us facts.

    Only today, we had one poster claiming that Sinn Fein had only fallen back to the level of their general election performance, when the most recent poll had them 1.5% down on that performance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,577 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Margin for error blanch, you know that thing you mention when FG are down in the polls.

    You can claim they have dipped below but you'd be guessing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    You lose your job and you are getting paid unemployment to pay for the LPT

    Their income does not drop to 0

    Plus if we make every decision on a recession that might come or might not, we won't get very far now will we



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,672 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    VAT is regressive because the zero rate applies regardless of whether you earn big or earn small. Yes, I know what you're saying that most of the things the less-well-off buy like bread and milk are zero rated but the well off eat bread and drink milk as well and therefore avail of the zero rate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,672 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Yeah you get €200 odd a week in jobseekers. But your property tax stays the same. In fact, as a % of your income it goes up substantially



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,276 ✭✭✭Good loser


    On this issue the facts are against you big time RS. Time to give over. Commonsense and logic says you're wrong.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,672 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Well thanks for your insight, well rounded, and full of proof, just what a proper debate needs… Wait a second….

    It's worth noting nobody has shown me a definition that contradicts my point, only an opinion. Whereas I have shown 5 examples above



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    FIrst it was 0, now its 200, that's a 200% jump in one post

    You made up a scenario, it was wrong, not sure why you keep on flogging the idea.

    The LPT is excellent, it has provided huge facilities in local communities which people of all backgrounds can avail of.

    People will get rid of it, everyone will suffer, the same people will then start complaining they have no facilities.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,149 ✭✭✭pureza


    Sinn Féin will be much higher come election time,the current polls are a blip.

    They are not a downward slide.

    Also the angry voter who chooses independent will transfer to Sinn Féin and vice versa,its a very significant chunk of voters now



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,149 ✭✭✭pureza


    They'll transfer to the anti government candidates without batting an eyelid

    The days of 1 preference voting are long long gone



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,672 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    FIrst it was 0, now its 200, that's a 200% jump in one post

    It isn't, because a 200% jump on 0 would still be 0. Seems you like making up maths rules now as well as taxation definitions

    The LPT is excellent, it has provided huge facilities in local communities which people of all backgrounds can avail of. People will get rid of it, everyone will suffer, the same people will then start complaining they have no facilities.

    The fact that we had facilities for communities before we had LPT seems to be lost on you but ok



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    You said it was 0, it wasn't…..the 200% was incorrect number to represent the difference.

    I didn't say anything about taxation, that you posting more incorrect information but to others and not me.

    As I already said, two playgrounds opened in our area in the last 5 years from county council due to LPT, none before that.

    You don't even care, just have to agree with everything SF tell you, time for some people to cop on and make up their own opinion and not what some political party tells them



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    So again, why would they go to SF?

    plenty of other options available

    Seems SF supporters are hoping for another election when people don't want to look at policies and just vote based on a revolt



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,672 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Also the angry voter who chooses independent will transfer to Sinn Féin and vice versa,its a very significant chunk of voters now

    This is likely true enough. The issue there is with the PR-STV system so unless the indie candidate tops the poll by a significant margin (or gets knocked out early in the counts) their transfers won't matter.

    Keep an eye on the Limerick mayoral election which is instant run-off so a good measure of anti-govt sentiment



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,577 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    This is hilarious.
    Every GE where the government gets changed is a 'revolt'.

    This notion of it being a 'revolt' reveals that you think there is some sort of natural order in play.
    People not voting for the siting government is normal democratic politics in action Clo-clo.

    Stop belittling the electorate.



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