Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188483#Comment_122188483

Civil War: Started by original sinn fein, splitting into two factions, over 100 years ago. The remnants of those two factions are in government together now. Not an issue.

Legacy of murdered civilians then

Homelessness: This is an issue everywhere, and we support the business of homelessness as well as any other democratic country

Increasing every month, I believe it's currently at 13,000 homeless in our country?

Health Crisis: We fund the HSE per capita higher than many other states. Indeed, it is my understanding that we pay more than the UK does per capita. Not sure what else you want the government to do here.

As a Limerick man I am horrified by this comment. We used to have 4 fully functioning A&E's in our area. UHL, St.Johns, Nenagh and Ennis. We now have one because FFG closed the other 3. UHL was recently described as a "war zone" in a recent inquest you might recall. The people of Limerick are actually afraid of their lives of going to their local A&E. Yet FFG reward our failed health ministers by making them Taoiseach. Simply not good enough whatever way you dress it up

Recession: Ah yes, the global recession. I'm sure, over 15 years ago, Bertie was over causing Lehman to fail.

To be very specific to how this country was managed at the time. We bailed out our banks and continued to pay for unsecured bondholders. While, at the same time standing over job cuts, wage cuts, and taxing our own people to much higher levels. Also see the closure of A&E's in the Limerick area which was seen as vital to balancing the books. While the elite of this country were alright, some of us were watching our kids and grandkids set sail for Canada, Australia, etc etc purely because there was no jobs here for them.

Rise of the far right: Now we don't have this, however there is a rational challenge being made to unvetted immigration. The current immigration policies are actually one of the reasons I wouldn't vote for FFFG again, but, SF and the opposition champion the same or worse re immigration. I saw a funny slogan at an anti SF event, "SF = Brits Out, everyone else in".

There is very sensible debates happening among many about the levels of Asylum seekers and immigrants. There is also people in balaclavas protesting outside politicians homes and buildings earmarked for international protection applicants being set on fire. We're literally one stage away from having a Jo Cox moment over here. What's the governments response to this?

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188579#Comment_122188579

"Legacy of murdered civilians then"… Yes, from Sinn Fein.

"Increasing every month, I believe it's currently at 13,000 homeless in our country?" How many are immigrants? My sister in law was homeless in the last 2 years. Received a house via HAP within 3 months of registering. Can't be that bad.

"As a Limerick man I am horrified by this comment. We used to have 4 fully functioning A&E's in our area. UHL, St.Johns, Nenagh and Ennis. We now have one because FFG closed the other 3. UHL was recently described as a "war zone" in a recent inquest you might recall. The people of Limerick are actually afraid of their lives of going to their local A&E. Yet FFG reward our failed health ministers by making them Taoiseach. Simply not good enough whatever way you dress it up" What would you like to do? We spend more per capita on health than most countries.

"To be very specific to how this country was managed at the time. We bailed out our banks and continued to pay for unsecured bondholders. While, at the same time standing over job cuts, wage cuts, and taxing our own people to much higher levels. Also see the closure of A&E's in the Limerick area which was seen as vital to balancing the books. While the elite of this country were alright, some of us were watching our kids and grandkids set sail for Canada, Australia, etc etc purely because there was no jobs here for them." We bailed out the banks because it was a requirement to receive funding and cash flow from the IMF. I don't think people realise how badly we were hit by the GFC as it coincided with our domestic boom.

"There is very sensible debates happening among many about the levels of Asylum seekers and immigrants. There is also people in balaclavas protesting outside politicians homes and buildings earmarked for international protection applicants being set on fire. We're literally one stage away from having a Jo Cox moment over here. What's the governments response to this?" There isnt a sensible debate though, when the government and main opposition are pro increased immigration without any changes, there's no voice for those opposed to it. This is one area where I disagree with FFG. The lack of a sensible debate and a sense of plowing ahead regardless is what leads to fear and the protests. I don't agree with criminal damage obviously but I understand (and agree) with the emotion behind it.

(Sorry.. I'm not as au fait with the new fangled boards site and I couldn't do the fancy embedded quote replies that you did!!_

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188740#Comment_122188740

"Legacy of murdered civilians then"… Yes, from Sinn Fein.

Which side of the civil war did Sinn Fein represent? Pro or Anti Treaty?

My sister in law was homeless in the last 2 years. Received a house via HAP within 3 months of registering. Can't be that bad.

As of March 2024, 13,866 people were accessing emergency accommodation in Ireland

https://homelessnessinireland.ie/

What would you like to do? We spend more per capita on health than most countries.

At a guess, I'd say the amount that is being spent on healthcare isn't the problem, or indeed the solution. I'm not saying I have the answer, I'm not even saying SF have the answer. But I'm certain that FF, FG, Labour and the Greens don't have it either.

We bailed out the banks because it was a requirement to receive funding and cash flow from the IMF. I don't think people realise how badly we were hit by the GFC as it coincided with our domestic boom

I know fully well how we were hit by the Global Financial Crisis. I lost my job at a time when I had to contend with a child on the way. The years ahead were difficult, we had banks (the ones we bailed out) not wanting to lend, the civil/public service not employing (unless you were in the know) and the department of social welfare treating us like criminals. While the actual criminals were off on their yachts in the Caribbean

There isnt a sensible debate though, when the government and main opposition are pro increased immigration without any changes, there's no voice for those opposed to it. This is one area where I disagree with FFG. The lack of a sensible debate and a sense of plowing ahead regardless is what leads to fear and the protests. I don't agree with criminal damage obviously but I understand (and agree) with the emotion behind it.

There's plenty of sensible, mainly independent, voices for those opposed to the increased migration, I suspect this is why they have been growing in popularity. Problem is they are regularly overshadowed by the misinformation, petrol bombs and violence that this govt seems content on not stopping

TL;DR

This government have no intention of fixing anything that is wrong in our country. I'm not saying SF definitely do, maybe they don't but I'd be willing to give them a chance.

(Sorry.. I'm not as au fait with the new fangled boards site and I couldn't do the fancy embedded quote replies that you did!!_

There's no apology needed on that one!

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188441#Comment_122188441

We are on the Sinn Fein thread.

I say that the political legacy of Sinn Fein is murdered civilians. You do not disagree with this, you do not challenge this. You mention other parties in a whataboutery response.

That means it looks to me that you accept my statement about the political legacy of Sinn Fein being murdered civilians. End of discussion here then, because we all agree.

ELM327

The political legacy of Sinn Fein is murdered civilians.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188892#Comment_122188892

Those murdered civilians were during the civil war, where strictly speaking SF were both sides. Pro treaty SF and anti treaty SF. Those both changed name to C Na G (later FG) and FF respectively. But they were also later, during the rise of various spinoff sinn fein groups, with no real link to the 1918-21 SF, in the late 60s onwards until after various splinters, peace was reached in 1998, but real provisional republican insert adjective here sinn fein continue to perpetrate violence and thuggery even today.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189294#Comment_122189294

I suppose the point I am making is you can probably tie any political party to having a legacy of murdered civilians. But that is all they are, legacies. It's not uncommon for what was once a militant faction to move to politics, instead of weapons, to achieve their goals. FF, FG, SF, DUP, UUP, and many others are all alike in this sense.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189338#Comment_122189338

Sinn Fein are continuing to perpetrate violence and thuggery even today? Care to share some proof of this?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189902#Comment_122189902

Other parties can point to other achievements. Whether it is Ardnacrusha back in the 1930s or the Custom House Docks Scheme, FF can point to positive contributions. FG can point to various referenda introduced to modernise the Constitution. Those are only small examples.

With Sinn Fein, other than murdering civilians, and then stopping murdering civilians, do they have any political legacy?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190284#Comment_122190284

Ardnacrusha was started and completed under CnaG not FF - its older than the 30s!

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190284#Comment_122190284

Plenty of things up north, such as the Good Friday Agreement but not down here as they have always been in opposition. So while they have been supporters of things like womens rights and gay rights it is fair to say small things like proposing referendums don't really come into the scope

Likewise they haven't created the housing and health crises that we are currently living through. They had a lot of good ideas around the last recession like taxing those who had money more than those who didn't but again being in opposition they couldn't get it through

FrancieBrady

The fact that they are the biggest party on the island of Ireland is because of their legacy. Yes they were heavily involved in a conflict/war as were the founders of FF FG, the British etc.
The reason they are the biggest party now is because of what they were involved in achieving for Irish people. They reward them for that, just as other parties are rewarded. I also think they have a fairly consistent legacy in calling the government to account/scrutinising legislation etc. The duty and function of an an opposition in a republic despite the fact some here would like no opposition.

And they have made mistakes too, nobody is denying that.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190314#Comment_122190314

The Good Friday Agreement was an international agreement between two governments, brokered by John Hume. There are about twenty people who can claim it as a legacy ahead of anyone from SF.

Maybe you could list the "achievements" of SF.

You could include some examples from their time in charge of Dublin City Council.

blanch152

Being the biggest or the most popular party on this island does not translate into achieving anything tangible.

Nobody is able to list Sinn Fein's achievements.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189294#Comment_122189294

People unfortunately die in war. The IRA made mistakes, certainly, did things that were in hindsight regrettable but the very very most were enemy combatants, circa 70%, an unheard of rate.

Either way, it is nearly 30 years ago, to most of the electorate it is ancient history.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190372#Comment_122190372

Or…John Hume made several attempts at brokering a solution and failed and it was only when he went on a solo run from his party, the SDLP and created an initiative called the Hume-Adams initiative that a workable solution was found.

The people of NI and indeed many here reward, not the SDLP but SF for what they achieved in negotiations. You may see 'no legacy' but they certainly do.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190372#Comment_122190372

Well councils by their nature are pretty quiet and don't have much power to change things but if I was to list achievements of Dublin City Council they did fly the palestinian flag over city hall last december and they did pass a motion to protect libraries from anti-LGBTQ+ protests. I'm not sure if they have much control over hospitals but I'd rather be in St James's than in UHL if I was sick.

So bad that you'd be fearful of getting sick because of what the hospital might do to you. That's the FFG legacy

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190422#Comment_122190422

There's quite the leap of logic to claim that Sinn Féin's electoral performance 20-25 years after the GFA is because of their perceived role in the peace process.

In the election immediately after the GFA - the one that would be most likely influenced by the various parties' roles in the peace process - UUP and SDLP were the two largest parties.

After that, both communities pivoted towards the hardliners and we saw the rise of the DUP and SF which dominated the next 20 years of NI politics.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190525#Comment_122190525

The GFA wasn't done the day it was signed blackwhite. There was a lot of water yet to flow under that bridge. Not least the reforms it ushered in.
You are entitled to your opinion that they have no legacy of achievement but as their growth shows, that is just an opinion, a curmudgeonly and rather bitter opinion at that.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190540#Comment_122190540

Amazing how you state your opinion as fact - and then throw abuse at anyone who dares express a different opinion. Classy guy

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190560#Comment_122190560

Wrong again.
I gave an alternate view/opinion of what blanch had an opinion on. The function of the word 'or' here.

Or…John Hume made several attempts at brokering a solution and failed and it was only when he went on a solo run from his party, the SDLP and created an initiative called the Hume-Adams initiative that a workable solution was found.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190584#Comment_122190584

Why lie when anyone can see it just a few posts above?

The people of NI and indeed many here reward,not the SDLP but SF for what they achieved in negotiations. You may see 'no legacy' but they certainly do.

Statement of fact. As usual the gospel according to Francie and then throw abuse at anyone who dares to question it

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190638#Comment_122190638

What abuse?
I give my opinion in every post, if I am stating facts I will back them up with links.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190506#Comment_122190506

I am talking about the period from 2014 to 2019 when Sinn Fein, together with a motley crew of left-wing independents controlled Dublin City Council, the period when the city fell apart.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190525#Comment_122190525

Correct, when you look back, the period around the time of the GFA can be seen as an oasis of peace and reconiliation. The middle ground was winning. Unfortunately, since then, the rhetoric of the sectarian parties has drowned out that middle ground and the resurgence of SF and the DUP are emblematic.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190417#Comment_122190417

And in those 30 years, Sinn Fein haven't a single political achievement to speak of.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190724#Comment_122190724

 the period around the time of the GFA can be seen as an oasis of peace 

Wow, just wow.

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/othelem/chron/ch98.htm

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190417#Comment_122190417

are you asserting that sf haven't been involved in crime and criminality in the last 30 years ?

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190525#Comment_122190525

The rise of SF and the rise of the DUP, in my opinion, can be traced back to the St Andrews agreement and the adjustment to the procedures on electing a first minister.

It had the effect of hollowing out the centre ground, which was a predictable and understandable development given the condition of both communities in NI.

IIt has little to do with achievement of either party, but more a mutual response to fear and hatred of the other side.

St Andrews was a bad development for politics in NI. I

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190756#Comment_122190756

 more a mutual response to fear and hatred of the other side.

So this only developed after an international agreement was signed?

What was bad about St Andrew's?

Wanderer78

some sf supporters are gonna be very very upset if this doesnt go in their favour on the day, and thats the way its looking!

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188579#Comment_122188579

This is quite a simplistic narrative. Would appeal to the bar stool crowd.

Yes we did bail out the banks. The final figure was about 30 billion once shares were sold.

Our national debt went to about 200 billion. Thus only about 15% of that debt was due to the banks

The rest was because of the collapse of the housing market and industry as a revenue stream.

Joe bar fly thinks we could have kept racking up debt and Europe should keep paying for us.

They did a deal. The trokia. It was terribly unfair but only an idiot would think we'd have gotten away with no cut backs

That there was a magical printing press for money.

The current housing crisis is a spin off of the collapse.

FG failed to plan ahead by not realising the population was still growing.

However you have to keep in mind that in 2011 the growth rate for 2016 was projected to be 2.5%

In the end it was 6.5%

Our economy bounced back a lot quicker than expected further driving growth further

I might still vote SF but not because of a bullshit narrative that the banks caused all the austerity