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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,819 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I wouldn't be surprised if Rassie brings in 4 or so new players. Jenkins could be a possibility too. That squad is fairly long in the tooth.

    For Ireland, Osbourne should get his 1st cap. He's shown enough to warrant inclusion. Ahern also should get a look.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,339 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    I think we can be pretty much guaranteed that there will be low numbered test capped players brought to South Africa, and probably debutants as well.

    Even if it's to experience what is like on a tour such as that, it's beneficial to perspective test level players



  • Administrators Posts: 56,542 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I do think most supporters recognise now though that in the grand scheme of things, winning series means very little, so I'm not really convinced about the bums on seat argument.

    A series win will feel nice but it will represent very little in the bigger picture. We've been here before.

    Similarly, losing this series will mean very little. As far as the result goes, it's fairly irrelevant.

    The series themselves are good entertainment but we do put way too much stock in them. They are a hangover from the amateur era, but really what they are is fixtures to fill the calendar and the bank accounts in years where there is no World Cup. Nothing more than that. I know we hate the term, but they really are the rugby equivalent of friendlies, the big difference with soccer is that rugby still has test rugby at the top of the pyramid so the players are still bought in and they aren't treated as a total joke.

    The likes of SA and NZ don't treat their touring series with anywhere near the same reverence as we seem to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,437 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    The test series in South Africa is a huge opportunity; pick the best players and do the best we can.
    Now is not the time to worry about future World Cups.
    By all means rest players as needed, but don't treat this as a development tour, the usual rationale should apply:
    players should be selected based on their current ability, and, if there are options between players of equal ability, select the player with the greater potential for the longer-term.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,538 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    That’s quite a childish and entitled post. It’s the type of post I’d expect to see someone who got into the sport in the last few years make who hasn’t seen the continuous gradual progress we’ve made over the last 25 years (wait for the inevitable ‘what progress, we’ve never won a WC QF’ post)

    What’s wrong with seeing your national team be successful? Did you enjoy the 2022 NZ tour series? Do you think the senior players regretted going on that tour or that the coaches wished they hadn’t brought Murray, POM, Healy, Earls and Sexton in hindsight after the WC QF?

    Do you think that if we send the strongest selection possible to test ourselves against the WC winners in their own backyard that we will look back at this if as a huge chance lost if we don’t win the 2027 WC?

    What’s wrong with feeling good about your national team? ‘We’ll feel great again’? We’re back to back 6N winners and came close to doing back to back slams this year. Why the negativity?

    Win and it means nothing. Lose and we’re rubbish. Some people will never be happy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,063 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The likes of SA and NZ don't treat their touring series with anywhere near the same reverence as we seem to.

    I'm not sure this is true tbh.

    This specific criticism of Farrell here is that we'll bring Beirne, a second row, when we should be throwing younger guys into it.

    The last time SA were here in November 2022, they picked Lood de Jager and Eben Etzebeth to play us, with Franco Mostert on the bench.* When we visited NZ a few months earlier, they picked Retallick/Whitelock, Retallick/Barrett and Retallick/Whitelock in successive tests. When they were here in 2021, Retallick/Whitelock.

    Guess who they picked when they came in 2018? Give up? Retallick/Whitelock. But I bet you'll never in a million years figure out who they picked at the Aviva in 2016.

    So looking at second row as a microcosm, I'm not sure they approach it any differently to us, they go all out to win.

    *The full SA team that day was:

    15 Cheslin Kolbe, 14 Kurt-Lee Arendse, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Makazole Mapimpi, 10 Damian Willemse, 9 Jaden Hendrikse, , 8 Jasper Wiese, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 Siya Kolisi (captain), 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff.

    I'm not seeing the crazy experimentation. I think Kolbe at full-back was new, but it wasn't much of a surprise to find he was really, really good.

    Post edited by Former Former Former on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,559 ✭✭✭✭phog


    You're opening paragraph is totally incorrect, I've tried having a reasonable discussion with you before but you failed just like now

    It won't happen again



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,559 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I went to Ireland v SA in Dublin I think with EOS as head coach, he used his Number One team, SA brought a developmental squad, we won, we were all delighted to beat SA but they went on to win the following RWC.

    We're told we can't play developmental squads at home as it affects tickets sales, we can't play them on Summer tours as we want to win summer series.

    We'll end up losing the QF in the next RWC and wonder why



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,559 ✭✭✭✭phog


    So, you want us to put all our eggs in one basket for a summer series win.

    What happens if we lose the summer series, what happens if we win but Rassie uses it to try new players or different combos.

    The Irish lads might have their confidence shattered if we're to believe your argument here



  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    The two things are not related.

    We can point to lot's of summer series and November internationals where we've picked experimental sides, and similarly can point to plenty of times SA and NZ sent packed sides out in games.

    Jesus christ you're using EOS era stuff here as an example, the game you're referencing here happened 18 years ago.

    There will be plenty of developmental minutes between now and the next RWC, and there likely will be some guys called up to tour this summer for their first experiences in an Irish squad, but the notion that we aren't going to go to SA to try and win is utter nonsense.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,538 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    If we had also played a developmental team in that game 18 years ago (I presume you’re talking about the 2006 game), do you think it would have made any difference to our performance in the 2007 WC?

    Interestingly enough we sent a developmental team to Argentina in June 2007 and lost both tests and didn’t even make it to a QF.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,852 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I do think most supporters recognise now though that in the grand scheme of things, winning series means very little

    I am happy to enjoy it for what it is.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,339 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    South Africa didn't beat us in the world cup, did they??

    They will be certainly out to 'right that wrong' and that will be their pure motivation. If you think they are just going to shrug and say "let's send out the baby bokke here" you're completely out of touch with reality. They will want 2-0 or nothing



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    So playing a developmental side guarantees RWC success?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,565 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Im utterly staggered that a series win in RSA is thought of as a 'meh, but what about the WC' by some posters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,538 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    100% agreed. I’ve heard of online Irish fans be referred to as arrogant by some opposing fans. Is it this the attitude that they’re referring to?



  • Administrators Posts: 56,542 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Lol.

    South Africa won the World Cup. Are we so arrogant that we really think they're sitting stewing over the fact they lost a group game to us, with a wrong to right?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,852 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I don't think they are stewing over it, but I think they'll have definitely moved onto it as their motivation du jour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,538 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    We won the tournament we competed in this year but lost to England in the process. Do you think the Irish players will want to avenge that defeat at the next available opportunity?



  • Administrators Posts: 56,542 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I don't really get why you're staggered.

    A series win is nice, but in the big picture it's totally meaningless. Similarly, a series loss is totally meaningless. The result of this summer series literally could not be less consequential.

    As far as rugby goes, it's pure entertainment, with nothing whatsoever on the line.



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  • Administrators Posts: 56,542 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I imagine they might use it as motivation, or at least Rassie might, because there is little else for them to use as motivation for a relatively inconsequential series.

    If it wasn't this, I am sure they would invent something else to try and generate interest.

    But I can't imagine they really care too much, certainly not in a genuine way.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,542 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Well that's a fairly awful comparison, since that loss to England cost us something (a grand slam) and South Africa's loss to us cost them nothing whatsoever.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,339 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    stewing?? not at all

    i distinctly said it will be a reason they wont put out the green horns like some other suggest we should do with this tour.

    do you think they see us as not credible opposition?

    ps: your post might come back haunt you when the media being building up these games



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,852 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    As far as rugby goes, it's pure entertainment, with nothing whatsoever on the line.

    This is true of all sport man.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,542 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Must be a horrible way to live - not sure how I could even watch the sport if that is how I looked at things.

    The whole enjoyment of international rugby lives and dies on your team winning a tournament that takes place every 4 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,538 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    ‘Awful’ comparison? Think you’re being a bit hyperbolic there.

    Regardless I have no doubt that SA will ‘want to fúck us up’ to use Rassie Erasmus’ words seeing as they haven’t beaten us since 2016 regardless of their great success since.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,559 ✭✭✭✭phog


    A series win will be terrific, a series win with some of the settled team at home would even be better

    A series loss with our usual 23 will be soul destroying.

    Using our usual 23 v a SA development team will be a waste of time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    SA lost to us in a pool game and then won each of their three knockout games by a single point each.

    They were incredibly lucky, and it would be madness to try to link any single act in their preparation to be the cause of their success and even madder to try to copy them and expect similar results.



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  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    It's not going to be a SA Development team.

    They will obviously have some new caps, which is driven by retirements and the general age profile of their squad at the RWC, but there is no way they'd risk losing a series to us so easily as to send out a Development squad against us.



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