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General Irish politics discussion thread

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    #3962
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    It’s jumping from the leftist slogan of “Refugees Welcome” to the hard-right dog whistles about open borders.

    You know exactly what they are doing - playing dumb to avoid criticising the party isn’t a great look



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    #3963
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,678 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122058572#Comment_122058572

    Can you explain what the conflict in the two positions is?

    I did some looking there and back in 2023 SF were saying this in the Dáil

    Don't be telling me what I 'know'.
    Just answer the question.



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    #3964
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,919 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122058340#Comment_122058340

    This is exactly what we have at the moment, so I would be curious what exactly it is about the system that SF would change beyond using it as an opportunity for fairly dog whistling soundbites.



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    #3965
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122058609#Comment_122058609

    It’s been explained - you feigning ignorance to deflect from that doesn’t change anything. Maybe try a different tactic for once - it’s transparent.


    Ironically - this State has only one open border - and it’s the one Sinn Fein spent 2016-2022 working very hard in conjunction with all other Irish parties to ensure it stayed open. But SF won’t let that stand in the way of dog-whistling to the far right

    Post edited by blackwhite on


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    #3966
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,678 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122058696#Comment_122058696

    Hold on, you were ridiculing them for changing.
    There is no conflict in the two positions.



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    #3967
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,395 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122058885#Comment_122058885

    Indeed - it's now the main route for asylum applicants into the country according to McEntee

    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/04/23/80-of-asylum-applications-to-be-processed-within-three-months-under-new-eu-rules/

    More than 80 per cent of people applying for asylum in Ireland are coming from the UK over the land Border with Northern Ireland, Minister for Justice Helen McEntee has estimated.

    Ms McEntee told the Oireachtas justice committee, which is holding a hearing on the Government’s decision to opt-in to an EU-wide migration pact, that the estimate was that more than 80 per cent were coming across the Border.

    We always used to regard the CTA as a means for failed asylum seekers to flow out of the country, not for prospective asylum seekers to flow in… times must really be getting hard in the UK!

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3968
    PommieBast
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122059783#Comment_122059783

    I suspect the EES roll-out (basically a system much like the US ESTA where everyone is fingerprinted & photographed) might be playing a part in this. The British gov't beat their chest a lot about immigration but UKBA in reality has been starved of cash.



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    #3969
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,678 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122059783#Comment_122059783

    As we found to our cost during the pandemic - if only we didn't have an unnecessary and artificial border we could better secure the island if it was all the one jurisdiction.



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    #3970
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,348 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122057481#Comment_122057481

    It is only longer trends that you can rely on.

    There really only have been two trends since the last election. Firstly, the Sinn Fein vote went up by about 10% until a year ago, since when it has dropped back to general election levels.

    For 2024, most of the parties have been within the margin of error relative to their previous general election position.



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    #3971
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,348 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122058885#Comment_122058885

    It is funny that Sinn Fein's new immigration policy is based on bringing back border checkpoints.



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    #3972
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,919 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122059489#Comment_122059489

    Was I? If you could put out where exactly I was doing that I'd be obliged.

    I do find the language re "open borders" opportunistic and in poor taste. Attempting to backstop it with talk about an immigration system that respects human rights and refugees is pure cakeism. It is using dog whistling language on one side, while arguing to essentially maintain the status quo on the other.



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    #3973
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,678 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122060867#Comment_122060867

    Apologies confused you with another post.
    Main point is this is not a new angle, over a year ago Pa Daly was saying exactly the same thing



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    #3974
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,666 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    https://twitter.com/abolishdirect/status/1783270535926833194?s=46&t=nCQ2zYUI_IYJ_l6bQ4J4vQ

    As usual - SF are perfect and everyone else is the problem.
    I mean it’s only known political opponents of SF such as the [checks notes] Abolish Direct Provision Campaign that see any problem with this



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    #3975
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,696 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Not a great look today in the Dail Chamber when leas Cheann Comhairle Catherine Connolly addressed an empty chamber when topical issues were up for discussion. It can’t be a shock given that that TD’s submit questions to be asked of the government. I know it’s Thursday but Jesus Christ they are payed by us to be there and apparently six of them(the three question askers and the responders) couldn’t be arsed it seems.



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    #3976
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,238 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122063305#Comment_122063305

    Well, Michael Collins and his local sidekick Dermot Kelleher were in Macroom last Saturday, telling the farmers that most of the TDs in the Dail were hippies.



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    #3977
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,678 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    How many political lives does she have left? Harris missed a trick not switching her out when he took over.

    https://www.businesspost.ie/analysis-opinion/matt-cooper-helen-mcentees-car-crash-week-sees-confidence-drain-away-from-her/



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    #3978
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users Posts: 6,880 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I have been paying a lot of attention to the Independent Ireland party. I have particularly noticed the repeated use of the term "Common sense" by their candidates…which is the sort of meaningless phrase that means all things to all people.

    It looks like I'm not the only one who picked up on it:

    To give me my due, I saw these lads coming. A few months ago I noted that their first celebrity signing was the Independent TD Michael ­Fitzmaurice, who immediately made it clear that “common sense” was his lodestar.

    This put me in mind straight away of the places where I see the words “common sense” used the most, which tend to be in the headlines of articles written in papers like The Telegraph by people who argue that “Brexit didn’t go far enough because it was too woke” — that kind of common sense.

    Soon former RTÉ midlands ­correspondent Ciaran Mullooly was ­bringing his particular brand of common sense to the party, running in the European elections. And now Niall Boylan is the man telling it like it is.

    https://archive.ph/xCQEF



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    #3979
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,678 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Hard to know how the minister's position is tenable if this is true. How could she give out a figure if there is no evidence for it?

    https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2024/0429/1446400-migration-figure/



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    #3980
    retalivity
    Registered Users Posts: 14,131 ✭✭✭✭retalivity


    Her position has been untenable 2-3 times already and she's hung on, wouldn't surprise me to see the same again



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    #3981
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,270 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122078508#Comment_122078508

    The headline is a bit misleading, there's plenty of evidence just not captured directly (it would seem we don't officially ask/record how the applicant got here as part of the process).

    McEntee said "at least 80%, probably more are coming over the border" which is based off the fact that 91% of the current International Protection claims are coming from "somewhere other than" the official ports of entry.

    Now , if they aren't getting into the country via the ports and airports , where are they coming from??

    We don't have a "small-boats crossing the channel" scenario here unlike the UK or countries in the Med so it's absolutely reasonable to conclude that the overwhelming majority of that 91% are coming across the land border.

    "This has increased in 2024. To date in 2024, there have been 6,739 applications for Internationl Protection at the IPO. Of these 6,136 (91%) were made at the IPO for the first time and not at a port of entry.

    "There are a number of circumstances in which someone might apply in the IPO without first applying at a port of entry. They may enter at an airport with valid documentation for example but choose not to apply at that time. Or they may apply having been in the State for a period previously, for example on foot of a different permission to remain.

    "However, the Department’s firm assessment, based on the experience of staff and others working in the field, and based on the material gathered at interviews, is that in most cases those applying for the first time in the IPO have entered over the land border.

    "This data, and the Department’s assessment, is what the Minister was drawing on in referring to the number of arrivals over land border."



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    #3982
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,678 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081383#Comment_122081383

    It's the idea that the Tanaiste is undermining what the MoJ is saying that is the problem here. It is an awful awful look and reeks of incompetence tbh. Don't they have channels of communication between each other?



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    #3983
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,491 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Why is it only after the passing of the Rwanda law at Westminster that the Irish govt released the "80% of asylum seekers are crossing the border with NI" soundbite? It just seemed to come from nowhere.



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    #3984
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082974#Comment_122082974

    Because a High Court decision was handed down stating that the UK is not a safe country because of the Rwanda legislation.

    The Gov could appeal that decision to the SC but have decided to change the law governing this.

    The 80% comes from the fact that over 90% of applications for IP are made directly to the IP office rather than at the port of entry. Someone requiring a via to enter Ireland who crosses the border without it is an illegal immigrant and can be returned across the border. Of course, they need to be detected doing so.



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    #3985
    pureza
    Registered Users Posts: 1,046 ✭✭✭pureza


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083377#Comment_122083377

    This

    If you enter a port without the required permission you are going to be detained whether that be at Rosdlare Dublin airport etc

    People denying that, if thats only happening to 2 out of 10 applicants and theres NO record of offcial entry by the other 8 out of 10 applying at the IPO and saying they're not entering from the north ,are talking out of their Ass



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    #3986
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,491 ✭✭✭political analyst


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083377#Comment_122083377

    That doesn't answer my question - the High Court made its decision a month ago.



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    #3987
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,284 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082105#Comment_122082105

    I think McEntee went off on a bit of a solo run here with her megaphone diplomacy. It was a bad mistake and others are now trying to dial it back a bit.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082974#Comment_122082974

    It's UK commentators that are making the connection with Rwanda. McEntee, SFAIK, hasn't suggested any link. Furthermore, the basis for her claim about 80%+ coming over the border is the the proportion of applications that are made in Mount St rather than at ports of entry, but she hasn't said whether there was any change in that proportion after the Rwanda plan was announced, or was enacted, or after the High Court decision. Is this 80% a recent thing, or has it always been the case? We don't know.

    UK commentators light on this because they want to claim that it shows the Rwanda plan is working — it is leading asylum seekers to leave the UK — but so far there doesn't seem to be much concrete support for that view in what McEntee said.

    If the timing of McEntee's comments is unrelated to Rwanda, what is it related to? I don't know, is the short answer. We may be overthinking this, if we assume that there must be some strategic consideration to the timing. If the comments themselves were not well thought out — and they weren't — then it may be that not a lot of thought went into the timing of them either. The comments were made at a hearing of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice in response to questions put to her, so the simple answer may be: she said it when she did because that's when she was asked the question. She might have given a similar answer in the past, if she had been asked in the past.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


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    #3988
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,284 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083573#Comment_122083573

    SFAIK it hasn't been claimed that there is no record of entry for the people applying at the IPO. All we can say about them is that they didn't apply for protection at a port of entry.

    There are (at least) 3 possible explanations for this:

    1. They came across the NI border.
    2. They entered legitimately at a seaport or airport (i.e. they were not visa-required, or they had a visa) and subsequently sought asylum.
    3. They entered clandestinely at a seaport or airport (which is hard to do but not necessarily impossible, e.g. at Dublin Port or Rosslare).

    It's likely that the majority did come across the NI border, since that's the easiest route for most people, but we have no actual figures on this. SFAIK the information collected when people apply in Mount St does not include how they came to be in Ireland— that's not relevant to the determination of their claim for asylum.



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    #3989
    PommieBast
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083991#Comment_122083991

    Does Dublin Port actually have any passport controls? Didn't last time I used it but that was pre-Brexit and I was driving.



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    #3990
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,284 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083996#Comment_122083996

    I haven't been through since long before Brexit, but I believe it does. I've no idea how thorough or comprehensive they are, though.



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    #3991
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,545 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083996#Comment_122083996

    I was a foot passenger off the Holyhead ferry last year and 1 garda on his own was checking ID, I don't know how much its done though.



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