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World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

1232426282959

Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,512 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Ah yes - the Middle Ages religious approach

    To keep power, deny the ability to argue against. Blasphemy! Heretic! #NoDebate!

    You haven't got a point, so you try deflect and abuse. Your post is a bigger argument against your case than you realise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    A generalised "significant risk to health" is not the question though.

    First, no treatment is ever 100% safe. It has to be measured in terms of the risk/benefit ratio - but the fact that adult clinics have refused to provide long term data makes that an unknown risk for young people with GD, even after years of such treatment.

    That's not the case with precocious puberty. In that indication, data is available concerning the risks and the benefits, long and short term. And even then, it's a controversial subject, where many of those who were treated as children now say the benefits were oversold to their parents, given the long term effects on their health.

    In any case, the risks of not treating are not the same in both groups, and the benefits are not quantitatively measurable for GD. Because clinics won't cooperate. Hence why PBs are still highly experimental in treating GD, but not for premature puberty - because nobody is holding onto the data there.

    Also, stopping premature puberty is temporary. Once the "normal" age range is reached, the child goes through its expected, natural puberty. Whereas a significant number of young people on PBs will then want to go on the cross sex hormones, and thus never go through their natural puberty. Nobody has studied the long term effects on adults who have gone through the "opposite" puberty to the one their physical body needs - and what we do know (from observation on kids who've done this) is concerning. And that's a problem that only occurs when they're given for GD. Again, another reason why extrapolating from use in premature puberty to use in gender dysphoria is such an experimental leap.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Posts: 753 ✭✭✭ Anton Gifted Marlin


    I'll try once more:

    • Patients with precocious puberty have a medical condition where clinical intervention with medicines may (or may not) be needed.
    • Healthy children should not be immediately affirmed and given puberty blockers on the basis that they claim to be a different gender.

    The evidence supports clinical intervention in some cases of precocious puberty, though it is avoided if possible. Once the child reaches the age where normal puberty can commence, then they go through the puberty as normal. It does not in the case of a healthy child who may have issues with their subjective sense of gender identity, and whose puberty is not the same when cross-sex hormones are then introduced; and where the long-term effects of this affirmed approach, as you yourself conceded, are wholly unknown.

    I'm going to leave the debate at this point because ideology is impervious to reasonable argument and evidence. I don't believe the argument is in good faith, on any level.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,416 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    This has to be trolling.

    Why not give the kids chemotherapy instead of blockers, it's been used for a long time too.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Not trolling at all, a drug doesn't suddenly become dangerous because it used on different people.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,416 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    So giving these kids chemo is an option here, cool!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    My irony meter is being tested.

    The advocate from an ideology rooted in postmodern codswallop lecturing people on the scientific method. Lol



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    All other things being equal, perhaps, but they aren't equal. As I pointed above, but you seem to have missed that. Or don't wish to consider?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I do not accept your distinction. If puberty blockers were medically harmful they would be equally medically harmful to precocious puberty patients. The harms been claimed are not there or they would have been banned.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Dr. Hillary Cass has been receiving 'vile' abusive messages since the publication of her report, has had to receive security briefings from police, and has been advised to avoid public transport for fear of attack from trans rights activists.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hilary-cass-i-cant-travel-on-public-transport-any-more-35pt0mvnh

    Quelle surprise.

    She blames explicitly some of the disinformation that has been peddled in this very thread, by activists and zealots outright lying about the report's methodology and recommendations because they don't like the conclusions.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    This is simply, categorically, not how medicine works. It is just wrong and betrays a complete lack of understanding of how medicines are approved.

    Medicines are approved to treat specific issues and using them off-label has frequently led to disastrous outcomes.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,512 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    It's a point that's been made to Shoog a few times but he's happy to ignore it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,130 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    Puberty blockers are harmful. It's why even in cases of precocious puberty, they are used sparingly.

    This is well known. In the cases they are used it's generally a lesser of two evils as the complications from a far too early puberty can be devastating.

    In cases of precocious puberty, they try get the child as close as possible to a normal puberty age, and then let that happen.

    Blocking a perfectly healthy child's natural puberty is not in any way the same. Then that child will either start the correct sex puberty far later than they normally should, or worse, go through a pseudo opposite sex puberty through the use of hormone treatment.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Plenty of medicine have been shown to be effective against conditions which they were not original designed for. Its you who shows a lack of understanding here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,187 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    Can you imagine the screeching if a TRA was warned to not use public transport for their own safety?

    As usual, they are trying to bully people into silence. Thankfully, people like Dr Cass or St JK are too big to stifle. The worm has well and truly turned.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As I said before Dr Cass advocates for medical studies of puberty blockers which requires children to receive them. There will be minimal change in actual prescription rates since they are already vanishingly small.

    Fortunately Cass is not quite so hysterical as some of her cheerleaders.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    "shown to be effective" being the rather important phrase in your statement.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think it has and there are recent studies in support of that showing increased physchological wellbeing in those recieving puberty blocks. Since the main threat to health of gender dysphoric adolescents is self harm - this is no small thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    If they've been shown to be effective (and safe) for gender dysphoria, why is Dr Cass saying that far more studies need to carried out to see whether they are, ehhh, effective??

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Because far more studies need to be carried out to confirm that. Dah.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Have you got a link to the activist Twitter account you read this on?

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    It's not my distinction. That's how medicine works. A drug is tested for a particular illness, and while it may sometimes be given off-label for other indications, that's not the same thing as saying the drug is safe for everyone and for any illness that any doctor thinks of using it for.

    Ivermectin for covid being an example. It's approved for humans for treating certain parasitic worms. It also has known antiviral properties - in fact it was being called a wonder drug only a few years ago. So - contrary to what a lot of people assume - it was a reasonable hypothesis to test it for covid, since we didn't have much else at the time.

    But - and here's the thing - scientists who carried out proper tests on their patients soon realised that it didn't really work. Conspiracy theorists, contrarians and people wanting to make a quick buck selling the stuff, all went on insisting that it worked.

    Which group do you think is more likely to refuse to make their data available for examination?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You all think your won some great crusade, but the outcome of all the hysteria is an increase in service and more studies leading to equal or more treatments.

    The only place where treatments are been withdrawn is where politicians are meddling in clinical freedom and decisions such as the American deep south, which is deeply unethical medical interference.

    You have won nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    It's not about the drug having a different level of danger in a different person.

    It's about the risk of giving the drug versus the risk of not doing so.

    You absolutely do not want to take Thalidomide if you're planning to be pregnant any time soon, but if you have myeloma then it might just contribute to saving your life.

    Taking radioactive iodine is a terrible idea because it carries with it an increased cancer risk and will kill your thyroid gland - but if your thyroid gland is malfunctioning and causing all sorts of symptoms, the increased cancer risk of killing it off is outweighed by the benefit in terms of quality of life improvements, the abatement of symptoms, and the reduction of life-threatening risks associated with the thyroid condition you would otherwise be living with.

    This is not a terribly difficult concept, so it's hard to find a reason other than you being ideologically upset by the implication why you're refusing to understand it.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    So it hasn't been shown to be safe then.

    Good.

    Maybe you should stop saying it has been.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    or like the bastions of reckless conservatism Finland, Sweden and Denmark.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ivemecton, now I know how you get your information. No serious Doctor ever prescribed ivemecton as an antiviral.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    If puberty blockers are shown to be a safe and effective treatment for children suffering from gender dysphoria, I will be happy for them to be given them.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Would "Nature" do you as a source?

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ja201711

    As to me claiming it was being "prescribed", maybe you have reading problems?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



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