Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

There is a huge difference in not knowing the solution and what you are doing and claiming you want a solution that is impossible to achieve - hence needing a 'magical solution'.

Going back to politics, you're taking the magic money tree approach - where politicians claim to want a solution where there is a huge increase in government expenditure without anybody having to pay extra for it in taxes.

Just be honest and accept that calling for a solution that closes a huge inequality gap for 3 provinces will significantly negatively impact Leinster.

Of course it will. Lord forbid that the provinces are made up of Leinster players. Is that what they want? Who'd get behind a province that's comprised of Leinster players.

Given Leinster aren't significantly impacted with the current split (7:5), I don't see any reason why they would be significantly impacted by any change that would act as a counter-weight to the now 10:3 imbalance.

They'd still be as competitive. They've been the most consistent side in the Europe for the last ~8 years, when the imbalance wasn't anywhere near as stark.

As for your continued "Just be honest"... I'm arguing in good faith. How is this anything other than accusing me of otherwise.

Who should get them? Hansen, Casey, Crowley and Bealham? Two bench players (or maybe not even bench in Casey's case) and an outhalf who's very new on the scene.

Hansen will probably get one next time (but about the same time Aki comes off one).

I've a largely stayed out of this conversation because I don't think we're dealing with a representative sample of Irish rugby fans in here. Elsewhere, I don't think I have heard a single fan push back strongly on the idea that the present system is unfair. For example, this was sent to a whatsapp group that I'm in with mostly Leinster and a few Ulster fans. It's from a Leinster fan.

Some thoughts on the central contract question:

The simple, blunt instrument approach would be a draft system like in the US. I don’t think this is a runner because of the loyalty that players and supporters have for their own province. This loyalty has contributed to the success of the provinces over the years.

The present system is unfair because Leinster don’t have to pay most of the first team. Having said that, all the guys who are on central contracts deserve to be, with Mack Hansen and JGP next in line, maybe Jack C in a couple of years time.

A possible solution would be for the IRFU to give an equal grant to each province to pay wages. Ireland players could get an annual top-up from IRFU for being in the squad and bonus for making the 23. Injury shouldn't cause them to lose out. Provinces could be free to raise funds/sponsorship and should get compensation from the IRFU for the unavailability of their front line players.

There are a lot of rugby people in Leinster who are reaping the benefits of their hard work and ambition in the past few decades. Particularly those involved with turning St. Michael's into the production powerhouse they currently are (two lost finals in the LSCs prior to 2000; three titles and four lost finals since).

To admit that the present system is unfair should not mean downplaying this effort or the broader achievements in this area. It's extraordinary.

But with population, logistics and expendable incomes as they are, there simply isn't a way for the other three provinces to close the gap any time soon.

There is a "double yield" enjoyed by Leinster when you then consider these structural advantages combined with inevitable supplementation of its senior wage-bill by central contracts.

Fixing the problem is a lot easier said than done, as that message above sums up.

Alooof

You are completely contradicting yourself. On the one hand, Leinster are at an advantage and thus more competitive because there is an imbalance in the number of CC's they have.

On the other hand you are saying that they would still be as competitive with less CC's as they have been for the last ~8 years.

Which is it?

That isn't at all why the NFL draft works.

NFL draft works because it is a monopoly and players have no choice but to go through the draft or they cannot play the top level of the sport. The terms of a player coming out of the draft now is also worse than it was in years past, where they have no right to negotiate the value of their first contract, which lasts for 4+ years.

If IRFU brought in a draft and a young star Leinster player is 'drafted' to Munster he could just tell them to f**k off and go get paid likely more to play in the Top 14, the Premiership, or even another URC side.

As sydthebeat pointed out, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of central contracts.

They are there to ensure the best Irish players remain in Ireland and under the control of the IRFU.

In that regard, they have worked fantastically over the years and the only real material miscalculation ironically negatively impacted the baddies in Leinster.

Well, there's that too, but clearly the money is a huge factor, otherwise you'd have potential draftees opting to get a regular job rather than taking up the contract.

The other thing about a potential draft in Irish rugby is that you'd be sending your hottest prospects to a set up with a less good track record of developing players. They'd end up as less good players. They don't care about that in gridiron because there's no USA national team competing in international competition you want to produce the best players possible for.

Money is a factor but only because there isn't another league where they can earn similar. IRFU doesn't only have to worry about high paying jobs like the NFL would, but also other leagues.

Agree with your other point. The average length of an NFL player career is 3.3 years, less than the length of their cost controlled contracts coming out of the draft.

Irish rugby doesn't have the playing population to churn through players like that if they aren't immediately showing progress. Having an annual draft means provinces are enticed to go after the shiny new young player each year, knowing that you get another shot the following year no matter how poorly your development program is.

To be fair, I am literally parroting exactly what you have said. You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

Is there a big enough player pool and finances in Ireland to have three teams at the level Leinster are at? Definitely not.

So the choice is to dilute Leinster so that we have four teams at a Scottish club level. Or we continue to let Leinster develop world class talent for Ireland and themselves and hope that the other provences change their structures to be more competitive.

Sorry that facts hurt your feelings and you choose to attack the poster rather than the post. We'll see if the mods give you the soft treatment you usually get from them.

There is clear evidence of how Munster made a complete mess of their academy system for a decade and only after they made significant changes that their system they also started producing the far higher quality we're seeing now. You must believe that is pure coincidence.

I dealt with that in my last response to you and instead of responding to it you've just repeated it at another poster:

As for the outlook of going 10:3, we aren't even seeing some huge shift in spending due to it - we may never will. Leinster are losing Molony, Jenkins, Ngatai, Alalaatoa (plus other squad players) and so far they are bringing in Snyman and 6 months of Barrett. I'd argue those wouldnt be far off netting from a cost perspective, if not Leinster will be paying less (though it could change with a TH signing).

Leinster are sacrificing quantity for quality in their transactions thus far. It isn't like they taking the potential two extra central contracts and bringing in 2 extra players at a similar cost.