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Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? *READ POST 1*

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,192 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I can see their rationale. They want to get more female members. They don't have enough qualified applicants.
    So they're able to make case-by-case decisions to allow someone who fails the initial test in, on the basis that they're confident that this person will be able to meet the requirements of the role over time.
    It's a positive action measure. And it's pretty much not 'getting rid of' fitness tests.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    Yes, beforehand they would "use" a failed test as the basis for a letter saying "thank you for your interest, but …".

    Now it's giving women a pass when they have failed - and a lot of the fitness tests had lower standards/slower times for women anyway.

    I'm a woman and it's misandry pure and simple.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,903 ✭✭✭iptba


    If there are jobs that don’t require a certain level of fitness, why do men have to pass the fitness test for such jobs? Seems pretty clear cut sex discrimination i.e. treating people different based on their sex. And from the State no less.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,417 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Because discrimination is permissible in Irish law under certain circumstances and conditions. Positive action is permissible, positive discrimination is a minefield best avoided:

    https://archive.ph/lyPgH

    And unlawful discrimination is obviously, unlawful.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,903 ✭✭✭iptba


    OK, though that is simply saying legally it might be ok. But either the job/career does or doesn’t need people to have a certain level of fitness. But this is saying some people need to have a level of fitness to do the job but other people do not.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭cms88




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,192 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It's funny how far people have to exaggerate the situation in order to complain about it.

    It's not, of course, giving women a pass when they have failed. It's giving the employer the option to give some women a pass, on the basis that they'll be able to meet the requirements of the role in time.

    But 'misandry'! Seriously? 🤣🤣🤣

    Because I'm not going to let you put words into my mouth. You know the answers, so why are you asking me?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,647 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    It's giving the employer the option to give all women who fail a pass, if they want. How are they going to determine which losers to opt for I wonder.

    If they're confident they can meet the requirements in time, then why don't they just give them another chance next year to pass the test? They're obviously not confident and therefore need to let them in now.

    As long as they don't go screaming sexism when their comrades have absolutely no respect for them at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭cms88


    There's a lack of male Primary School teachers. By your logic should they still be given jobs if they fail collage exams because they might meet the requirements later?

    What if a female who fails a fitness test never gets to the level required?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 749 ✭✭✭tjhook


    There are some very capable and professional female soldiers. If I was one I'd be fuming over this. I'd hate for people to assume I'm less capable than my colleagues and that I was accepted because of what genitals I have.

    I'd also feel short-changed if I was on a dangerous deployment, supported by somebody who wasn't required to meet the same standards.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    What is the male equivalent of a handmaiden ? Asking for a friend.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Could you imagine seeing a National Newspaper say something like
    "Irish Women fall short in ranking of average boob sizes around the world"

    Or "Irish Women fall short in ranking of average vagina tightness, around the world"

    Might as well say Irish men are a joke and lets laugh about it.

    I have two young kids. A boy and a girl. My daughter will likely read sexist things as she grows up. But she will see people call it out as sexist. People will say "dont be a d**k head, you shouldnt say that". But my son will also read sexist things. The difference is people will joke about it instead.

    We always hear that "social media hurt young girls in particular" and it makes them feel bad about their bodies. But what is the difference here? All I see is the "feminist" NGO mentality that is popular across the western world, tends to take the approach "men have had it their way for too long. Now its our time". My son is 5. He is not responsible for Weinstein "loving himself" in an elevator on front of people. My son and daughter should have equal rights and respect. "Leveling out" is not real to people who never had that perceived "Privilege".

    I am all for not body shaming. I am also all for taking the absolute yellow water out of these things. But rubbish like this needs to be called out instead of taking cheap pops for clicks. But the truth is we will have Ciara Kelly on Newstalk spouting about how women are body shamed in this country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    Only women getting hired, promoted or higher pay increases the last few years where I work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,192 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    At a guess, they'll make their determination based on those who they believe will be capable of meeting the required standard to do the job.
    But I guess that sensible suggestions won't go down well with the triggered masses here

    By my logic, I can they absolutely could have flexibility for male primary school teachers, on a similar basis - that they're reasonably confident that the person will be able to meet the requirements of the job in time.

    What if a male who passes a fitness test falls below the level required?

    Yes, there are very capable female solders, and the ones I know certainly don't need the white knights on Boards the rescue them. I'd guess that most of them are confident that the majority of their colleagues aren't focused on their genitals, one way or other.

    Am I Google now?


    Yes, imagine if your daughter had to go through the trauma of seeing headlines like these?


    https://her.ie/life/bigger-assets-our-average-breast-size-is-growing-22752


    Honestly lads, if yiz have to scrape the bottom of the barrel so hard to find things to be offended about, yiz have little to be worrying about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,192 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    What kind of business and sector are you in?

    Have you raised the issue with your trade union?

    Have you considered changing employer?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭cms88


    ''What if a male who passes a fitness test falls below the level required?''

    At least they passed it in the first place. Besides they'll be fine as i'm sure the DF would be confident they'd get to the required standard. Or d you only think that when it's females?

    Also the only one person here scraping the bottom of the barrel on any of these subjects Mr White Knight.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,192 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    oh but what about their poor colleagues who'll be depending on the fatties to save their lives? Do you ever think about that tragedy? Or is that only when women are involved?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭cms88


    I don't know but you're the one suggesting people who have been certified as unfit for a job should still get it based on their gender. Are you not?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You mean headlines like this?

    Difference is the headline about breastsize is actually talking about a discomfort issue. The headline about small penis' is just poking fun at men.

    You are correct about female soldiers though. One of my mates is a prison officer. She is more suited to that job than any guy I know. But she is a typical woman. As in she isnt "butch or manly". She is just suited to the job.

    I was once passed up for a promotion because I was told by my manager that she wanted to hire a female for the role. In the same company (a big coffee chain) they have nearly all female managers. In my current company we brag about having a 78% female employment. Of course if it was the other way around they would be slated.

    PEOPLE shouldnt be discriminated against for roles. My son and daughter should have the same opportunities . But I know as a white male, my son is going to have to let other skip the queue as he grows up. All in the name of "levelling out".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 749 ✭✭✭tjhook


    Just on your friend who's a prison officer - I do think that if her level of strength and/or fitness is adequate for the job, then a man shouldn't be required to have a higher level of strength/fitness to do the same job. I'm talking in general terms here, obviously I have no idea how fit your friend is or the set requirements for a prison officer.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,192 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It's funny how far you have to twist my words and twist the reality of what's going on so that you have something to complain about.

    Oh my, the fragility of the middle-class white male is surely a thing to behold. 'Poking fun' 😂😂😂

    Should we be supressing the results of medical research in case the lads feel that they've been slighted?

    As previously explained, positive action isn't discrimination. That's a matter of law, not opinion.

    Why didn't you take a WRC case when you were discriminated against in the promotion?

    It's strange to hear all these stories of the lads who are being oppressed in these terrible female dominated employment situations. Funny how, in a time of full employment, with all kinds of employers begging and screaming to get qualified staff, the lads haven't been able to find an employer that better suits their values.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,647 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    You can try to talk to someone but if they remain so blatantly hypocritical and disingenuous in their views you just have to say enough is enough and ignore.



  • Posts: 0 Nancy Little Tack


    I'm not sure what your problem is, the thread is about sexism - this is clearly a double standard - why shudnt women have to pass fitness like men, its that straightforward..

    No one is complaining about oppression and all that lark, just pointing out a double standard..

    Your only argument is positive action is not discrimination - OK, but it still does not change the double standard.. If fitness is a requirement for a role how is this positive action? Dont be so naive, not all laws are fair… the double standard (law) only came in to get more women in…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 749 ✭✭✭tjhook


    "As previously explained, positive action isn't discrimination. That's a matter of law, not opinion"

    Andrew, just to clarify - my understanding is that "positive action" is often discrimination, It's just not illegal discrimination. I assume that's your meaning here too?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Tbh I think she would meet the male level of strength and fitness. Thats how its should be. There should be a required minimum of ability for any job and if you meet it, thats fine. Regardless of gender.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,587 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    No

    Every time I'm sick the woman fake coughs at me and say's man flu. As a man it's very hurtful to be constantly hit with this trope. We need to fight for a fair and equal society sexism needs to stop.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "The fragility of the middle class white male" - Yes I said "Poking fun" as I didnt want to be crued. But a story about how Irish men have small penis' is on par with a story about how Irish women have loose Vaginas. Would you tell a woman that they are being "fragile" if they displayed outrage at such a headline??

    Positive action IS discrimination. Just because certain laws are in place to allow it, doesnt mean its not discrimination. If you loose out on a job to a weaker candidate due to your gender, that is the very definition of discrimination.

    As for my own experience, I didnt go to the WRC because that would put me in the public domain and potentially hurt my chances at future employment. I weighed up my options and left for a better job instead. That doesnt mean that it was right what they did.

    You seem to be all for men just moving on to better employers but I doubt you would say the same if a woman was treated like that. Maybe you should stop with the double standards and stop with thinking about gender. EVERYONE regardless of gender should have the same opportunity. If you dont think that you are wrong!



  • Posts: 0 Nancy Little Tack


    Just replaced a word there:

    "EVERYONE regardless of gender should have the same opportunity. If you dont think that you are discriminating!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,889 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    What about different fitness tests for the different sexes? if it is as simple as fitness is required for the job, then.why not have one level of fitness test?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • Posts: 0 Nancy Little Tack


    why not indeed? Good question

    They should have a minimum level of fitness, and both sexes need to meet the requirement..



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Thats what I dont get.

    IF a certain level of fitness is needed then it should be across the board. Maybe the level they are looking for isnt realistic.

    Look at height as an example. Why would you need to be a certain height to be an Irish soldier? If there is a real reason then fair enough, it should be across the board. But maybe some of these occupations could rethink if the requirements are realistic.

    If it is a safety thing then it cant be different depending on gender. If it is an elitist thing, then maybe they need to wind their necks in a bit.

    No occupation should be out of reach for women. NO OCCUPATION!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,903 ✭✭✭iptba


    For what it is worth: I remember at one time there either was talk of different fitness levels being required for male and female firefighters in a country (can’t remember if it was here or elsewhere) or there were actual different fitness levels required. There was a concern then that some of the women might then not be able to do the job sufficiently effectively e.g. in terms of lifting the heavy equipment, lifting a body out of the building, etc. There are often very practical reasons why certain levels of “fitness” can be required for a job.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,889 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl




  • Posts: 0 Nancy Little Tack


    you’d be perfectly happy having single player sports not broken out Into different sexes ie tennis, running etc?

    This is where it all get so stupid.. world gone mad!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 749 ✭✭✭tjhook


    "What if a male who passes a fitness test falls below the level required?"

    I can give an opinion. We may disagree, but that's ok, the people setting the rules aren't listening to either of us :)

    Firstly I think an entry test should be at the level that's required to do the job. No higher. So any person who isn't meeting the standard by definition isn't capable of doing the job.

    Following that, if we're talking about a job like a Garda/soldier/firefighter/etc, anybody (male or female) who is already in the job but falls below the level required, they are then not fit to do the job. They shouldn't be given "active" assignments. I.e. they'd be assigned back-office tasks. Not all these reasons are the fault of the person doing the job. If somebody injures themself, it's not a bad reflection on them, but if they're not capable of doing the job to the level required, they shouldn't be assigned to do so until they are capable.

    A bit of searching tells me that in the Irish armed forces, there has been a system whereby if somebody fails the regular fitness test, it's taken seriously and they have 12 weeks to improve and retake it. I think the repercussions can be serious (sorry, I can't find a non-paywalled link, here's an Irish Times link in case anybody can see that), or at least used to be, but I think in principle it's fair if it applies to everybody.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭cms88


    How can i be twisting your words when that's what you said?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,192 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Except that's not what I said. That's a fair distance from what I said.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,192 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Interesting, so somebody being below the required criteria for a period of time isn't necessarily a barrier to being a competent soldier. Good to clear that up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,889 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Thhe point is there are already different standards for men and women. They don't do the same fitness tests for different occupations, so changing either or levels of standards is nothing abnormal and is already in existence.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,192 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    There absolutely IS a double standard, and you're absolutely right to say this is to get more women in. To me, that's a very sensible approach to achieve a very sensible objective - more women soldiers in the defence forces.

    In general, the positive action laws are much broader, and apply to people with disabilities, people of colour, older people and more.

    You make a fair point in your last paragraph, and tbh, it wasn't really a serious point that people should just change job. I was really just trying to explore these scenarios a bit more, as they generally seem to be either imagined or grossly exaggerated to me.

    Yes, it doesn't constitute discrimination in law. It is specifically permitted, for very good reasons.

    I'm suggesting that the approach of not automatically cutting out women who can be reasonably expected to reach the required standard over time makes perfect sense, in the context where we want to get more women into the defence forces.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭cms88




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭cms88


    But way do you only want it to apply to females? Or are you going to change your story again?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    It’s called the Bigotry of Low Expectations , with a bit of white knighting and a soupçon of internalised misandry.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,417 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    maybe

    Enough of the bickering please. This thread is about sexism against men, not trans people. Off topic posts removed.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,417 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,192 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I don't want it to 'apply only to females'. As mentioned above, I've seen it applied to people with disabilities, people of colour, older people and more.

    In the case of the defence forces, they want more women, so they're applying a positive action measure to women.

    But you knew that, didn't you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,192 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Do you want me to cut and paste my earlier posts?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭cms88




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,709 ✭✭✭cms88


    But how is it positive? You keep making these points but then refuse to actually answer anything about them.



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