Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

Options
1112113115117118142

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    Everyone, take a look at this post.

    Look how many assumptions are made in the questions asked of me:

    Why do you believe migrants should live in fear?

    Why do you believe migrants don't have a right to be safe?

    Why do you believe migrant's don't have the right to be free from persecution?

    I don't believe any of these three things.

    Given the gravity of these allegations, would you care to provide any evidence that I "believe" any of these things? I look forward to reviewing this evidence.

    But on the question of attempted murder or harm of refugees and migrants — or anyone for that matter — laws already exist to handle such cases; and indeed, many of these laws have already been executed.

    People have a right to express their concern on social matters relating to migration and refugees, for good or ill. Nuance exists in debates like this, it's not all one way or the other. That speech should not be restricted on the basis that a minority of people engage in hostile or violent acts. That latter minority can and will be dealt with under extant legislation.

    Additional hate speech laws add nothing to this, nothing at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Stephen_Maturin


    Calls from a tiny number of weirdos LARPing in their little telegram group. And such calls would rightly fall afoul of current incitement to violence laws that we already have

    ”Why do you believe migrants should live in fear? Why do you believe migrants don't have the right to be safe? Why do you believe migrants don't have the right to be free from persecution?”

    The poster didn’t say any of that. Why do you feel the need to put words in their mouth to make your point? I believe that’s the definition of a strawman



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,191 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Sums up exactly why the bill is a bad idea and sets a dangerous precedent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Says a lot that you dismiss calls for murder as "larping"

    It has already been explained the 1989 Act doesn't reflect widespread use of the Internet and that is part of the reasons why it needs to be updated.

    You cant with a straight face say that call would face prosecution when nobody has been prosecuted over it.

    The bill addresses direct acts of violence and also targets the root causes of it updating laws on criminal incitement to hatred and and adding incitement violence.

    In this way it vindicates peoples rights to safety and to be free from persecution. Those against this Bill must explain why they are against peoples rights to safety and peoples rights to be free from persecution.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    If that's the argument then what's required is a very specific and objective incitement to violence legislation. I wouldn't have any issue supporting this legislation, nor would anyone else.

    But subjective, ambiguous hate speech appendages to this legislation are not needed.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Indeed. You can't explain why it shouldn't be updated. You can't explain why people's rights to be safe and to be free from persecution shouldn't be upheld.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    Laws already exist to handle all the crimes you speak of. Harassment, violence, murder, threatening behaviour etc. It's all there in the statute books to ensure people's right to be safe and to be free from persecution. For anyone, not just migrants.

    It existed before 2022, and it will exist after this legislation is not passed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭Shoog


    There is nothing on the statutes to cover general incitement to violence and hatred towards a group. Harassment is against individuals.

    Calling for a group to be killed as recently happened in the Dublin riots is not adequately covered and the proof is that the specific individuals have not been charged.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The same bad actors would troop out all the same arguments if one were introduced. The underlying desire among those objecting is the ability to talk hate without consequences.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Wishing harm, violence, injury or death on another person or group.



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    "Wishing" is a thought.

    That cannot be the basis upon which legislation is formulated.

    Actual harm, violence, injury, or murder is dealt with under existing legislation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Inciting others to perform those acts through speech or writing is what the legislation is all about.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    We already have incitement to hatred legislation so your suggestion that it can't be legislated for is false

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    Incitement to violence is already illegal in Ireland, as per the 1989 Act.

    2.—(1) It shall be an offence for a person—

    (a) to publish or distribute written material,

    (b) to use words, behave or display written material—

    (i) in any place other than inside a private residence, or

    (ii) inside a private residence so that the words, behaviour or material are heard or seen by persons outside the residence,

    or

    (c) to distribute, show or play a recording of visual images or sounds,

    if the written material, words, behaviour, visual images or sounds, as the case may be, are threatening, abusive or insulting and are intended or, having regard to all the circumstances, are likely to stir up hatred.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    No

    @suvigirl has extensively explained above. It isn't. Go back and read the thread.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Laws don’t exist to handle issues which are currently not a crime though, that’s why the current Act is being replaced with new legislation which will make them a criminal offence in order to protect everyone on the basis of the additional protected characteristics, and the additional prohibition on trivialising genocide.

    The proposed legislation is objective, in the sense that it applies to everyone equally, and doesn’t allow for your subjective opinion to suggest what are and aren’t crimes, in your opinion. By that standard, because it is subjective, anyone can commit an offence and judge themselves not to have committed a crime. Nobody is being granted that right, obviously.

    The restriction on everyone’s right to freedom of expression is in the provision which makes the right subject to public order and morality. It’s that provision which you would need removed if you wanted to maintain that people’s right to freedom of expression should not be restricted. The Act itself isn’t doing the restricting, it’s stating objectively what characteristics are protected.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I would ask again have the people who called for the murder of all immigrants been prosecuted under the current legislation. Its not a trivial point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 366 ✭✭Roger the cabin boy


    A dangerous bill.

    Potentially disastrous tbh.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,038 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    I'll agree to this hate speech legislation with the following amendments:

    Insults based on being male and heterosexual will be treated as hate speech

    Insults on being white will be treated as hate speech

    Using the term cis to describe anyone's gender will be considered hate speech

    Using the phrase TERF will be considered hate speech

    Describing anyone as a fascist or far right is considered hate speech

    The phrase "Ireland for all , or refugees welcome" will be considered hate speech as it discriminates against people already living in Ireland.

    All we need now is a more conservative leaning government and we can push through these amendments to the bill and I'll be happy.Who knows with the turn against the government and the turn to the right the political parties seems to be advocating now they realise their current approach is not very popular it might very well be possible



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Indeed. Dismissing calls for murder as "larping" Calling for murder isn't playing a silly game.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭Shoog


    I don't consider any of the class of insult you describe as hate speech, and I very much doubt that any such insults will ever see the inside of a court room whether they apply to straight or any other group. There is substantial hysterical hyperbally regarding this legislation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭Economics101


    From the Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/07/police-spammed-with-complaints-by-neo-nazis-under-new-scottish-hate-law

    Actually the headline is misleading: some of the critics are not "far right". And the law appeard to have a massive potential to waste police time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    All we need now is a more conservative leaning government

    The proposals above that you’re suggesting have nothing to do with Conservatism as a political philosophy though? You’d need a populist Government for what you’re suggesting, and there’s no political party is popular enough in Ireland to form a Government on their own.

    For what it’s worth, current legislation doesn’t say anything about merely insulting anyone, it refers to a prohibition on incitement to hatred on the basis of the protected characteristics included in the legislation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    The 1989 legislation I quoted speaks for itself and cannot be casually dismissed.

    This new legislation seeks to add the following:

    Create new laws to deal with hate crimes.
    Expand the protected characteristics to include gender (including gender identity and expression) and disability.
    Make it an offence to deny or trivialise genocide.

    Unlike Austria and Germany, I don't believe Holocaust denial should be illegal. The best way to sanitize their false history is with more speech, more arguments, more evidence — not criminalizing people and letting it fester underground.

    Second, I don't believe that subjective gender identity / expression should be a protected characteristic.

    Third, I don't believe that anyone who "perceives" (the word in the legislation) hate against them therefore has a legal basis to define it as a "hate crime".

    On all grounds, this legislation fails.

    And, as I already said, Incitement to Hatred and Violence is already a crime, as per the 1989 legislation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    You claim legislation shouldn’t be subjective and that it shouldn’t be based on the whims of activists, then come out with the nonsense above! 🙄

    How are those compulsive complainers working out in Scotland btw? It’s clear from the article posted earlier that they’re definitely not who you imagined they would be, for all your scaremongering to try and discredit the proposed legislation in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭concerned_tenant


    It seems "compulsive complainers" in Scotland — on both extremes — are demonstrating why this legislation fails utterly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    ‘On both extremes’, would you go way with that nonsense still trying to make out you were any way right when it turns out the people who are actually the compulsive complainers are people exactly the same as yourself who are opposed to the legislation.

    The legislation exists independently of the complaints, that’s what is meant by objective, the legislation isn’t intended to address vexatious or frivolous complaints, so it hasn’t failed in something it was never intended to achieve in the first place. Unless you have your own special definition of failure?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Nobody is talking about making any insults illegal

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



Advertisement