Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977189#Comment_121977189

This is real head in the sand stuff, yet again from you.

It is astonishing that someone could write so much but have such a narrow minded view of how legislation will impact a society. You, like a few in here, seem to make this claim that you really know what is best for society as a whole with this legislation. You are speaking for those who might be prejudiced and so on, who put you forward to speak on their behalf? And who are you to say what someone can or could say, based off what?

This doesn't protect Irish society, don't introduce some crusade as if it does in here when you nothing to back that up, or even claim that. Everyone knows that the law applies to them in a country, this isn't about that.

Let's look at the protected characteristics then, which ones would get preference? Just the ones you like? What if a religious org were to say something "hateful" about say genocide, or a gender, who would get the protection in that case?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977412#Comment_121977412

What one example? There are 3 examples in my post.

As for your example, no. No they couldn't be prosecuted for that. If you think they could, please link the offence.

What do you think about hate crime legislation in other jurisdictions? Canada etc.... I linked a few eearlier

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977454#Comment_121977454

Well religion is a protected characteristic in this new legislation, so if someone were to say something like that, and a Muslim deemed it hateful, why couldn't they report it to the Gardai? How could they not be prosectuted?

Why do I have to care about what other countries do? I live between Canada and Ireland, Canada has a lot more problems to address than Hate Speech.

kippy

Don't be getting too exercised with discussing this bill. It won't see the light of day - way too much of a hot potatoe in the current political climate. With McEntee getting the heave ho out of justice, they have somewhat of a fall guy and even if that isn't enough they'll keep pushing it down the road until this Dail is dissolved. It's way too hot and controversial and when you see parties and individual TD's doing U-Turns and I'd expect a fair bit of discontent within government parties, this one is going nowhere - thankfully.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977480#Comment_121977480

I enjoy looking at those in favour trip and fall over trying to make a case for it.

There are no real grounds to introduce it, it does nothing to make society better or safer.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977488#Comment_121977488

Exactly, and with Leo gone, and Coveney after him (and god knows who else) there's not many drivers left for it. Whoever ends up in the justice portfolio will have no interest in advocating for it - there are plenty real problems in Justice to deal with that people might actually notice/benefit from that should take precidence.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976871#Comment_121976871

'Traveller Babies should be drowned at birth, asylum seekers should be burnt out of their accommodation and Jewish people should be forced out of the country.'

Should it be illegal to share this in a private, 'edgy' / ironic / dark humour group? Not sure if it still exists but say something like the Nein 11 private forum here on boards?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977495#Comment_121977495

Simon Harris was the one that put this legislation through the Dail.

And he has made it known that he is in favour of it.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977526#Comment_121977526

He is a politician. The smarter politicians know when the tide of opinion is against them. You reckon the side deals he is making with independants and indeed with folks in his own party don't have some form of requirement to see this bill not get put into law before the end of this Dail?

Politicians will be getting questioned left right and centre on it - even Sinn Fein have done a 180 on it.

If it does get through it will be unrecognisable from what it is now:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-41361103.html

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977526#Comment_121977526

Another reason he’ll be a footnote Taoiseach in the annals of history.

A Fine Gael Liz Truss

suvigirl

Something like

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977465#Comment_121977465

Something like what exactly?

If you live between Ireland and Canada, surely you would be interested in legislation in both countries.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977538#Comment_121977538

Guarantee he pushes this through and he’d be out quicker than her!!

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977538#Comment_121977538

I agree

Beasty

Do not discuss other users. If you cannot be civil then do not post

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977543#Comment_121977543

I will repeat what I said earlier to you in this thread then, you seem to either forget or ignore posts when it suits you: "the religion of Islam is repressive to women and gay people", could someone be reported for that due to religion being a protected characteristic?

Canada isn't Ireland, I am also not a citizen here but I am a citizen of Ireland, so I have more of an actual say with a vote in Ireland. The biggest difference with it in Canada is that it considers the high likelihood of a public disturbance, legally referred to as a "breach of the peace". At least in reference to public incitement of hatred.

The Irish one does not state that in this new legislation. And, we have public order acts to cover that also.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977451#Comment_121977451

Head in the sand stuff? I addressed each of your points and explained why I couldn’t define hate in regards to the Constitution or the current 1989 Act, because it refers to hatred, which IS defined in the 1989 Act. I assume that’s the Act you were referring to when you asked me to ‘define hate in this regard’.

You then go on to accuse me of having a narrow minded view of how legislation will impact a society, and I have to assume you’re referring to the proposed 2022 bill here, and I have to further assume that you could only be referring to Irish society. From that you make the argument that I seem to make the claim that I know what is best for Irish society, and that’s where I begin to wonder do you possess even a modicum of self-awareness given that:

• you’ve completely avoided responding to any of the points I made in response to your previous post
• you argue that I have a narrow minded view of how legislation will impact a society
• you point out that I seem to make the claim that I know what is best for Irish society

And then you ask me who put me forward to speak on anyone’s behalf, and who am I to say what someone could or couldn’t say, based off what?

Did it honestly not occur to you in asking the question, that I don’t recall nominating you to speak on my behalf? You have nominated yourself to tell me what Irish people should and shouldn’t be allowed to say, based upon your idea of free speech, and if anyone doesn’t like what someone says, they can either grow a thicker skin, or ignore it. Your ideas aren’t even remotely relevant to the proposed bill, never mind its contents. That’s what it means to have your head in the sand and be of such narrow mindedness that you imagine only your opinion matters, and to hell with anyone who doesn’t recognise your authority.

As for accusing me of being on any sort of a crusade with nothing to back it up, you must have ignored the evidence I provided only yesterday too, but here it is again, and it’s not coming from me, it’s coming from AGS themselves:

https://www.garda.ie/en/information-centre/statistics/hate-crime-statistics.html

You’ll note the part where they say that they recognise, despite improvements, hate crime and hate related incidents are still under-reported. They will work with partners to build confidence and trust to encourage reporting to An Garda Síochána. And they mean it too, with initiatives like working in conjunction with the University of Limerick to deliver a Certificate course in Policing and Human Rights Law (FETAC level 8):

https://www.ul.ie/artsoc/news/graduation-ceremonies-for-policing-and-human-rights-programme

And if you blinked and missed it, the passage of the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act contains an absolute bucketload of initiatives aimed at improving policing in Irish society and ensuring continued confidence in An Garda Síochána to be able to protect Irish society from the kind of broad minded individuals such as yourself whose only concern is the freedom to abuse and humiliate other people, and if they don’t like it, instead of complaining to the authorities who can actually do something about it, they should just grow a thicker skin, or learn to ignore it.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2024/act/1/enacted/en/html

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/d2458-minister-mcentee-welcomes-passage-of-landmark-policing-security-and-community-safety-bill/

Forgive my narrow minded ignorance O Great One, but I don’t imagine your ideas working out too well in terms of creating a socially cohesive society where everyone is free to go about their business without fear of for example being set upon by some nutball who thinks they have the authority to control who is or isn’t permitted to use bathrooms provided for use by the general public!

I’ve no interest nor intention whatsoever of looking at the protected characteristics individually, because they are all equal, it isn’t a hierarchy, and which protected characteristics apply will completely depend upon the circumstances and context in each and every individual case. Neither my preferences, nor yours, nor anyone’s for that matter, are even remotely relevant, and it certainly won’t be me who is making that determination. That is primarily the role of the An Garda Síochána, who are entrusted with the responsibility of ensuring that everyone in Irish society is able to go about their business without being subjected to hatred, prejudice and discrimination on the basis of any of the protected characteristics listed in the proposed legislation which is intended to replace the current Act.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977712#Comment_121977712

That is a very long winded way of not answering my question. You are shifting responsibility here by not giving a simple opinion and avoiding a simple question. All with your usual long post full of links and attempts at sounding smart and with personal digs thrown in. It's a shame that you can't engage in an actual debate and resort to this carry on.

I am probably the only one willing to respond to your posts, so your first bullet is wrong. I stand by that your view is narrow minded as you aren't seeing the broader impact this legislation would have, that could be down to ignorance or that you have some vendetta against me calling you out on your opinions. You are indeed speaking on others behalf's, you can maybe reread your own posts on that front.

I am not telling Irish people what to and not to say, you are advocating for legislation for that though, the irony was lost on you there.

You are just throwing back what I said to you, at me, like a kid who has dropped his sweets and is in a huff. That you seem to take issue that I would tell people to simply ignore other peoples opinions, how dare I come in here with some common sense, what was I thinking. But here is OEJ advocating for you all to call up the Gardai when you are offended, that is the best way to deal with it.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977732#Comment_121977732

A vendetta against you? Jesus Christ Frank don’t be ridiculous, I have all the time in the world for you! Vendettas require the sort of energy and commitment that I could never possibly be arsed to muster up! 😂 That out of the way, the only other possible explanation according to you is that I’m not seeing the broader impact this legislation could have, and that could be down to ignorance (on my part, I’m assuming, is what you mean? Like that’s not condescending as fcuk, but no matter, ‘tis all good 😂).

I see the broader impact the legislation could have on Irish society, and the legislation certainly does not tell anyone what they can or cannot say, there’s just no irony there whatsoever, nor am I speaking on behalf of others or anyone else. I’ve spoken only for myself, it’s the legislation which applies to everyone. I thought we’d established that you understood that much already.

It’s not that I have any issue whatsoever with your advice to anyone to ignore other people’s opinions, it’s that you never address your advice to the people who cause issues for other people! It’s as though you imagine those people have no obligation or responsibility whatsoever to other people in Irish society, and if it’s more important to you that people have the freedom to abuse and humiliate other people, then it’s not me who has any difficulty whatsoever in understanding the impact on Irish society of the legislation and why it is deemed necessary in the first place. Why don’t you address your advice to people who feel it’s their God-given right to say whatever the hell they like, whenever they feel like it, to whomever they feel like saying it to, and other people just have to put up with their shìt?

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977526#Comment_121977526

Harris is now in favour of "amendments" to the bill, given what he claims are legitimate issues raised with the legislation; whilst also saying he supports passing the legislation.

That's political-speak that the current version of the bill will not go through, or that it may not go through at all.

After the defeat of Varadkar's horrific and pointless referendum, I have no doubt in my mind that Harris will take that into consideration if he has any chance of winning the next election.

Pushing this hate speech legislation will be a very bad move, and he knows it.

Cluedo Monopoly

Climbdown by FG coming on the Hate Speech bill. Paschal more or less admitted it. The bill will be put into review mode just like the 2015 public standards reform bill.

Geuze

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-wanted-to-extend-hate-speech-bill-to-give-undocumented-migrants-special-protection/a1549686896.html

I regularly describe and discuss the scale of illegal immigration by AS making bogus claims.

Might I become a criminal if SF's proposal had been accepted?

Imagine: the illegal immigrants would not be prosecuted, yet somebody describing their illegal activities might be!!

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978861#Comment_121978861

The wording is truly dystopian!

The party’s amendments to the laws specified that reference to a person’s migrant status included references “to persons seeking international ­protection, persons with refugee status, persons with permission to remain and persons with any other regular or irregular migrant status”.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977938#Comment_121977938

No harm to make amendments.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979093#Comment_121979093

Some people are not ok with this law being amended.

But I hope the other poster is correct that this law is effectively now too toxic for any incumbent government to pass through.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979093#Comment_121979093

It does depending on the amendment!

What a stunningly naive statement!!

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978861#Comment_121978861

The SF proposals weren’t to prohibit discussion of illegal immigration? Why do you imagine you could be arrested for discussing illegal activities related to immigration? Let alone wherever you get the notion that anyone involved in illegal immigration is immune from prosecution.

I don’t think it’s asylum seekers bogus claims you need be concerned about, I’d be more concerned about your own bogus claims.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979180#Comment_121979180

Then why did they want to include "bias" into hate crime legislation ?

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979209#Comment_121979209

In fact, it's worse than that.

According to the Irish Independent:

Sinn Féin also proposed including “bias, prejudice, contempt, hostility and bigotry” as hate.

The party further wanted to define hatred and incitement.

It also wanted to extend the legal recognition of hatred for people who were presumed part of a group that fell under any of the protected characteristics.

Talk about making the law ten times worse.

Had this legislation come into existence, it would be no better than authoritarian legislation in countries such as Russia and China. It directly un-weaves what it means to live in a free and democratic country.

At least now their position has reversed, with Sinn Fein now proposing to wholesale scrap the legislation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, proponents of hate speech legislation are no better than authoritarians in that both claim to be acting for the "Good" of the nation through irrational restrictions on people's behaviour.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979209#Comment_121979209

They couldn’t spell ‘predjudice’ and thought they meant the same thing? I don’t know, you’ll have to ask them, whomever they are, that wanted bias included in hate crime legislation.

You’ve not given any sort of a source for context, that I might be able to understand why whomever you’re referring to wanted to include bias in hate crime legislation. Same as the two posters above, Cluedo and concerned - making claims without providing any sort of an independent source to provide context for their claims that would allow anyone to form their own conclusions.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979308#Comment_121979308

Bow to Kim Jong McDonald then if they ever spawn an election and get in!!