Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

MrMusician18

So after months of consultation and 4000 submissions, the minister for justice has sought and received approval to bring forward her bill on hate speech. Should the law pass, hatred speech will now be easier to prosecute and will now contain provisions around gender identity as well.

I don't know what to make of this to be honest. While it's good that people will be protected from bullying and harassment (as they always were?)laws like this can only have a chilling effect on legitimate debate no matter how well intentioned. Who or what website or publication is going to make the determination that their speech falls on the right side of the line when a custodial sentence could be the result of getting it wrong.

One also wonders about the priorities in the department to be honest. Rather niche stuff like this seems to be getting an awful lot of time compared to big issues like lawlessness in Dublin City.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/2022/10/26/new-bill-to-criminalise-incitement-to-hatred-against-transgender-people-following-cabinet-agreement/

Mod warning 26/9/23

I realise some of you wish to try and turn any thread they can into discussion of trans issues

This thread is about the proposed legislation, not your personal views on transgenderism

Any questions PM me - do not respond to this post in thread

Threadbans

Frank Bullitt

Ten of Swords

*Grabs mod popcorn*

Let me pre-empt this, can all posters please keep this discussion civil and on topic

Boggles

laws like this can only have a chilling effect on legitimate debate

Do they?

Will have absolutely no effect on me, primarily because I'm not a hateful cúnt.

Strumms

😅 ^

starts off at ‘hate speech’… but you can be sure this will be used to suppress any forms of critical commentary on certain issues that certain corners of society don’t like to see discussed, debated or critiqued. It’s intended to stifle and erase legitimate debate, without question.

not only as relates to the topics mentioned but wider political discussion too.

Why would anyone object to these laws if they've got nothing to hide?

opinionated3

Won't have any affect on my beliefs either. There's only two genders. Fact.

foxsake

hate speech is such a made up term.

in the modern context of the weak minded , it's simply speech you don't like

Ten of Swords

For context, Ireland has consistently scored badly compared to other EU countries when it comes to laws dealing with hate speech. The public consultation was long overdue and so is the legislation.

As an example, ILGA is an organisation that monitors LGBT+ rights in Europe but they have always scored Ireland low in certain areas and hate speech is one of these areas. Here is their most recent evaluation

https://rainbow-europe.org/#8639/0/0

Compare Ireland to some other European countries in this report for some proper context.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794567#Comment_119794567

Which part of the bill will stifle your "legitimate debate"

Be specific.

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794629#Comment_119794629

🤣🤣🤣

All "term"s are made up. That's how language works.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794629#Comment_119794629

Exactly… weak minded people who cannot grasp that in a civilised world, one of the most profound pillars of our freedom is the ability to speak freely and openly.

 "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”

EmmetSpiceland

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794640#Comment_119794640

First they came for the hate speakers…

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794647#Comment_119794647

So no posters will have any issue when I call them racist for using hate speech then though, right?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794657#Comment_119794657

No, they tend to absolute lose their minds when labelled correctly.

It's weird. 'Fraydumb of screech for me, none for you.'

🤷‍♂️

20Wheel

Trans has been in the media non stop for the last 5 years and I still dont know exactly what it is they want.

It just seems to be a soap box for the politically correct to stand up on and do their fist raise.

Then the conservative media milks it for ragey click bait.

How can we make them shut up.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794657#Comment_119794657

Why would using hate speech necessarily make someone a racist? There are many types of hate.

FunLover18

Some people need to read the constitution before they start banging on about profound pillars of freedom 🙄

RobbieTheRobber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794684#Comment_119794684

I didn't say it "necessarily" did!

You do win the award for needlessly pedantic reply to me of the day. Congrats

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794637#Comment_119794637

And what qualifies an NGO who has zero impartiality in the debate btw, to ‘score’ anyone. It’s an ‘opinion’ communicated to push, suit and conform to their agenda and beliefs. Nothing impartial or credible about that.

nothing remotely democratic, thought out or appropriate. It’s a narrow self serving angle.

ironically. If we look back through history and the types of extremist ghouls who were advocates of and who actively brought in legislation to ban free speech…. Erm… it’s not a pathway we should be embracing.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794705#Comment_119794705

have you any specific criticisms of what they have done or have you just decided you don't like them because you don't agree with what they say?

ChickenDish

While I've no time for woke idiots, I don't believe people should be given carte blanche and hide behind "freedom of speech" with their toxic vitirol. I agree that there has to be a line drawn in the sand regarding what people can say publicly. As with all laws, each case will be dealt with on its individual merits, not this scaremongering where legitimate debates will be shut down.

America is an ideal template of how not to approach freedom of speech and legitimate debate.

Ten of Swords

Strumms, I provided a report that has been compiled, studied, vetted and presented. They do this every year going back at least a decade. You can read It or ignore it if you wish.

So far most of the other responses on the thread have been emotive based.

Perhaps you could point out the parts of these new laws that ban free speech?

thegame983

People who do not conform must be silenced.

Silentcorner

You would have thought that all of those who believe the Far right are on the rise would be the one's most terrified of laws that police speech....but it seems that is not the case!!! What if the Far right gain power? Which we are warned about all the time...it's bizarre!!

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794742#Comment_119794742

So we shouldn't "police" things like genocide denial because it might upset some racist cúnts?

Really? 😕

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794637#Comment_119794637

Well of course the scoring is based on the assumption that hate speech laws are needed, so whoever has more of these laws gets a better score.

Strip away the bureaucracy, and its presentation by self-styled 'official' organisations, and all that's left is that people who are in favour of hate speech laws are in favour of hate speech laws. Its a context of circular assumptions.

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794768#Comment_119794768

Jesus, that is some leap!!!

Imagine giving the clergy the legal power to decide what can be spoken of publicly back in the day! I shudder to think what they would have done!!

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794768#Comment_119794768

Who cares if we don't?

Its mostly a problem for Austria, Germany and Poland insofar as its a problem at all.

How has the lack of genocide denial laws impacted Ireland in the last 80 years (i.e. since 1942)?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794786#Comment_119794786

We did do that and more, it was horrific, that's why I doubt Ireland in particular will be going back to our ultra social conservative roots because of some overdue hate speech laws.

Again specifically what are you afraid of?

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794803#Comment_119794803

I'm afraid of what Irish people are capable of when you give them too much power....you can see why given our history!!!

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119794711#Comment_119794711

No, it’s them who have a problem with other people and what they might say to the point of wishing to criminalise them.

we go around espousing the same standards anytime anyone disagrees or strongly critiques any organisation or group, their beliefs or values… because let’s get this straight… it’s not really about ‘hate’, but about putting people in their place and having a stick to threaten them with if any resistance or negative publicity should emerge in the media or social media that may shown them in an unfortunate or unfavourable light.