Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

El Vino · 28-03-2024 02:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948518#Comment_121948518

If you say anything that could be interpreted as mild criticism of the team in the wake of a defeat it is immediately jumped on, you are bananas or an idiot. I recognise we were the best team in the tournament over the entirety of it, would I be confident of beating this England, French, SA or NZ team especially if they kept 15 on the pitch in a one off game of consequence, probably not.

Former Former Former · 28-03-2024 03:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949520#Comment_121949520

In the build-up to the France vs Ireland game this year, it was literally being billed as the championship decider, just in the first week of the tournament, and we hammered them - in Paris - and it did indeed turn out to the decider. If you want to sit there and p*ss all over that because they had a man sent off, then grand.

Do Ireland then get any credit for only losing by a single point against England when we got a yellow card and they did not, or we ended up with our scrum-half on the wing? No, thought not.

Some people don't want to give credit to this team because they don't like Farrell and they don't like the IRFU. That's all this is, dress it up however you want.

aloooof · 28-03-2024 03:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949575#Comment_121949575

If you want to sit there and p*ss all over that because they had a man sent off, then grand.

Another point on this is that discipline, to a large extent, is in your control. Our record for avoiding cards over the last 2-3 years under Farrell has been exceptional.

Podge_irl · 28-03-2024 03:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949520#Comment_121949520

would I be confident of beating this England, French, SA or NZ team especially if they kept 15 on the pitch in a one off game of consequence, probably not.

Why not? Ireland have won the last three against SA and the last 4 of 6, including one in a neutral location and one in South Africa.

Ireland have won 4 of the last 5 against England

Ireland have won 6 of the last 9 against NZ

Ireland have won 5 of the last 8 against France.

We are not guaranteed to win any game, but we have a winning record of the last while against basically everyone.

aloooof · 28-03-2024 04:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949716#Comment_121949716

Ireland have won 6 of the last 9 against NZ

More than any other, that stat jumps out a mile.

Podge_irl · 28-03-2024 05:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950017#Comment_121950017

Most probably cause it's wrong! Should have said 5 of 9

Still though. Dream stuff for anyone who followed irish rugby before 2015 or whatever

28-03-2024 05:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950181#Comment_121950181

There was times when a single win seemed impossible

aloooof · 28-03-2024 05:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950259#Comment_121950259

Indeed, there were times when either a gut-wrenching narrow loss or a hammering seemed inevitable…

Stanley 1 · 29-03-2024 01:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943176#Comment_121943176

Not by a distance, France with DuPont in full flow is a toss of a coin and England outmuscled us and we ain't got any bigger players not in plain sight, again toss of a coin game.

Nigzcurran · 31-03-2024 02:36AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952780#Comment_121952780

Trc second account? 😄

jacothelad · 31-03-2024 12:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948567#Comment_121948567

I have wondered for a while if the departure of Lancaster and the loss of his influence on the skills and thought processes of Leinster players has a carry-over to how they perform for Ireland. It seems to be true that what is coached in to players loses potency over time.

I have been observing rugby in Ireland since the mid 1950s. It always makes me chuckle when a player now is anointed as the best ever Irish player in his position. Recency factor at play. We'll never know because it doesn't matter and it has no value. JGP has been crowned by someone on here as the best ever………..well, he might be but I have seen quite a few great 9s playing in green. Johnny Moloney, Colin Patterson, Roger Young for example were all great players in the amateur days. With full-time training and coaching they would have been even better. I don't think there would be much difference from greats of yesteryear and current players. Sexton was a great player but so were guys like Jack Kyle, Tony ward, Ollie Campbell and they usually had to play with not so great teammates around them.

The one thing I have garnered from almost 70 years of playing and other involvement in the game is that historically, Ireland teams that blossom and do well tend to hit the buffers rather than declining slowly. Hopefully, and it looks like it, that our current set-up leads to positive evolution. Long may it continue.

The big dilemma really is how to make best use of the current huge numbers of young players - mostly from Leinster - while being fair to them and Leinster. I'd rather someone who doesn't make the Leinster Academy is made welcome elsewhere in Ireland rather than in England or is lost to the game. Leinster can't possibly be expected to accommodate all the riches that are flowing at the moment. It's a tricky situation…..

Happy Easter

Dubinusa · 31-03-2024 01:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958712#Comment_121958712

There's a lot of Leinster talent spread throughout the provinces. Apparently, Sam Berman and DeKlerk are going up to Ulster. Both of them are fine prospects. Ulster also have produced some fantastic prospects and Ward and McKillop should get academy contracts. Over the last 4 seasons Ulster have produced some very good talented u20's; Sheridan, Crothers, Hopes etc. Munster have really stepped up the prospect pool also. Expect Murphy and Edogbo to get contracts this year.

I'd say an average of 7 to 10 u20 players will go on to have good careers. Others won't make the grade and some will not make it due to injury; Charleie Ryan, Peter Claffey, Conor O'Brien etc. I would say that the provinces would gladly accept lads from other provinces. Leinster took in McKee! Good player with a bright future. Some lads choise to go overseas and don't do well. Will Hickey, Karl Martin, Ronan Loughnane and Tadgh McElroy.

It's a tough game scouting prospects.

Stanley 1 · 31-03-2024 06:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958160#Comment_121958160

Please explain…..

Former Former Former · 31-03-2024 06:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952780#Comment_121952780

when France have DuPont and Ntamack back they’ll be a different team, but in the 6N just finished, we were much better than them.

England deserved to win against us, but over the course of the tournament we were by far the better team. No debate.

Podge_irl · 01-04-2024 08:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121960017#Comment_121960017

In the 6N last year when Dupont and Ntamack were playing we were much better than them too…

Podge_irl · 01-04-2024 08:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958712#Comment_121958712

There is an inherent truth to this, and while the gap between amateur and professional is the biggest chasm we will ever see (the players are clearly not comparable in any reasonable metric as far as I am concerned) it is also true that even in the last 15/20 years skills have evolved and changed. I don't think it is entirely recency bias - someone like Stringer would simply not survive in the modern game. If the question is who would be the best to play the game today then the answer is peak Murray or JGP.

Out of deference I'll refrain from commenting on the Sexton point cause I think it's very wrong 😂

pickarooney · 01-04-2024 09:02PM

Why would Stringer not survive today? He was incredibly fit and played until he was nearly 40. If Casey can play international rugby at his size today I don't think Stringer would have an issue.

leakyboots · 01-04-2024 09:28PM

Stringer wouldn't survive? Aren't you a bit old to be playing April Fools?😂

Podge_irl · 01-04-2024 09:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963357#Comment_121963357

The same reason Casey isn't making inroads into the Irish 23.

That aside, it's not about his physicality. He was a one-tone scrum half that worked incredibly well at the time. The only goal was getting the ball as quickly at possible to the 10 or whoever the playmaker was. And he did that very, very well. Against modern defences having zero threat from your 9 is a problem (and before anyone mentions the HEC final try, it only worked because he ordinarily had zero threat). Now, maybe he could have adapted to the modern game - we will never know. But a player who played like him would not get very far today. That is what makes the comparisons so difficult - the type of game played by players in previous eras doesn't necessarily work anymore. It's the same reason POC's handling would be an issue today, or BOD's long range passing game.

Rugbyf565 · 01-04-2024 09:50PM

Would love to see Nick Timoney get a start in South Africa this summer.

leakyboots · 01-04-2024 11:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963485#Comment_121963485

This is mad stuff. If Jean Kleyn and Stephen Archer, two big culprits of having tits for hands, can improve their handling to where they are now being latches in attack, throwing offloads out of the tackle and off the floor and pop passes… all within a season or two under their coaches Munster… then I'd dare say our greatest ever second row could manage it too. Pat Lam transformed Connacht into the best passing team in the country.

Strings was a very intelligent 9, I'd say he'd have found a way to 'survive' in today's game or the coaches would have. As for being one-tone, like you said he was very good at it and that tone is the most important facet of his position. Look at Luke McGrath, one of the biggest criticisms of his game is his passing. He has almost every other facet going for him, great break particularly, but I'd argue that's why he got 19 caps and Stringer got 98.

Casey is making inroads into the 23… he's got 14 Irish caps. He's still only 24. Sexton got his first cap Irish at… 24. Casey's up against arguably our greatest ever 9 in Conor Murray and JGP who has the jersey currently. Murray's time is coming to a close, Casey is the next cab off the rank unless someone else steps up. I think his progress has been steadily upwards since he made his debut for Munster, he wasn't rushed or, dare I say it, overhyped. As an aside, he has a bullet of a long-range pass that reminds me of Stringer!

AbusesToilets · 02-04-2024 03:24AM

Casey's decision making and lack of physicality will hold him back more than anything else. He goes for snipes at inopportune times, that he lacks the strength to make imo.

02-04-2024 07:50AM

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OldRio · 02-04-2024 08:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964235#Comment_121964235

1 post. OK.

50HX · 02-04-2024 05:45PM

I see saracens have signed English qualified Fergus burke from crusaders

With both smiths & Ford England are building nice depth at 10& 15

aloooof · 05-04-2024 11:52AM

Our discipline dis-improved during the 6 Nations, so I had a quick look at the stats (and I need to double-check this cos it seems like a mad stat, but looks right…).

We picked up 5 cards (all yellow) during the 6 Nations.

You have to go back 30 Tests to the win vs England in March 2021, when things first started to click for Farrell, to get the previous 5 cards we accumulated (1 red and 4 yellows).

I think our discipline and ability to keep 15 players on the field was a large part of our success since then, so a bit of a worry that it's trending in the wrong direction.