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Is it time to join Nato

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  • Registered Users Posts: 908 ✭✭✭buzzerxx


    ..



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,637 ✭✭✭eire4


    I agree with you there to an extent. When I say Navy, Air Force, intelligence and Radar I say that meaning those are the niche areas where we should be spending the lions share of defense money and developing real capabilities in those areas. I disagree with you that attacks on our off shore infrastructure cannot happen beyond a terrorist threat. The Russian dictatorship has already shown they can threaten us sending ships and planes into our off shore sea and air space.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    The airspace incursions from Russia are specifically tests on the RAF and NATO response, to which the RAF already respond. Maybe it could be argued that by joining NATO that Russia would alter their flight paths a bit further west so the avoid not just the Hebridies but also Ireland, but it would still be the RAF responding. There is no amount of money that Ireland could spend to have any capacity to respond itself.


    As for the off shore infrastructure that Russia takes an interest in, that is not really any more than the equivalent of a tiny terrorist force. They are not sending any full on warships over.

    Spend more on the right type of things, not on bigger and louder guns, boats and planes.

    Nobody in NATO is saying that Ireland should join and pay their share. Once they get to refuel in Shannon and fly some jets over from Angelsea to intercept Russian planes when needed nobody is looking for Irelands status to change.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,802 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Yes, it's just like the EU's Mutual defence clause which we already have.


    The French have their own nukes. They like the Italians and Spanish have aircraft carriers.

    Geographically you have to come through NATO to get to us. The UK, US and EU all have vested interests in keeping third parties out.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    what benefit does it offer us to cease our neutrality?

    For one thing our defence forces is largely a shambles.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 417 ✭✭scottser


    Yeh, maybe it'll be another wuhan leak that gets us instead.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,144 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison


    Im not far off this thinking myself. We should have come to the table a long time ago and had a proper national debate on just what neutrality means in the 21st century instead of referendums on stay at home mothers.

    Im not sure if NATO would even have us right now but we do need to sort out our capabilities for at least monitoring our coastal areas and that will take a hell of a lot of money in itself - we can’t possibly invest in “defending” ourselves as we just don’t have the cash to do that - but better monitoring and cooperation with sharing such information with European countries and the US would be a start - we need to move away from this sitting on the fence thing at this stage as it’s not something we’ll be respected for



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,848 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    there is very easy way and relatively inexpensive of showing "we" are "useful" . Create a Drone reconnaissance capability , operate it out of the West and South coast , and have 24 h automated surveillance. Could be used for military and policing , then do a quid pro quo deal with the French (not the British) the French would love it ;-) for any assistance we need based on sharing intel or Time from the drones.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,022 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The land invasion scenario is fanciful.

    But we have a very significant area of sovereign waters/airspace in comparison to our land area, and an absolutely massive EEZ in relation to our land area. To patrol and monitor this we have a couple of ships (when we can rustle up a crew), no primary radar, no SAMs, no fast jets.

    Basically anyone can do whatever they like there and even if we do find out about them we can't do a thing about it. We get lucky and intercept the odd drug shipment, but that's it.

    This makes us a weak link and threatens the wider security of Europe and the West. Much of the transatlantic telecoms infrastructure passes through our EEZ, it's an obvious target.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,022 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Not even in defence of our own country?

    Talk about tying both hands behind our own back.

    Life ain't always empty.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,022 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    We need to fix that, regardless of joining NATO or not.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    To patrol and monitor this we have a couple of ships (when we can rustle up a crew), no primary radar, no SAMs, no fast jets.


    Was with you on the criticism regarding boats and radar capability, but then you switch to dreaming of missiles and fast jets.

    Ireland needs boats for dealing with fisheries protection, smuggling, and coast guard type activities. It does not need big guns or fast jets.

    Any infrastructure attacks that might happen would be by small groups of either terrorists, or a couple of Russians that are operating "unofficially". Being in NATO isn't going to help protect Ireland from any of those attacks, and it also won't trigger any NATO response. See the gas pipeline attack in the Baltic a couple of years ago. That was a NATO countries infrastructure, but attacked by unknown forces (it was Russia) and absolutely zero response.

    NATO membership can help if attacked by another nation which is things that Sweden, Finland and of course Ukraine are at risk from. Ireland isn't at risk from other countries operating in the open.

    It's risks are small scale attacks, by small terrorist groups or unflagged Russians. Joining NATO would just increase the risks from terrorist groups wanting a soft NATO target. Being in NATO or not wouldn't make the slightest difference to any potential threats from Russia as shown by the Nordstream attack or various ones like Salisbury in the UK.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,848 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    im flexible, but then there would need to be an ironclad clause about no Irish military serving outside of the Island of Ireland, except as per existing UN type arrangements.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,459 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Why?

    We don't trust Dáil Eireann to decide where Irish forces operate, so we are better off letting Putin and Trump dictate it 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,637 ✭✭✭eire4


    Well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. IMHO the Russian dictatorship is already a clear and also IMHO an increasing danger to us as well as to all of Europe. Asking the RAF to step in is just us being spongers. Again whether we do or do not join NATO is debatable. What for me is not debatable is that we need to stop being spongers and pull our own weight when it comes to defense, security and intelligence capabilities. We benefit enormously from being part of the collective that is the EU and are not neutral at all in the sense that we are very much part of the democratic world and believe in living in a free open and democratic society. Nobody is saying we should suddenly be looking to develop some enormous military but it is time for us to stop being spongers and play a commensurate role in the defense of such.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,637 ✭✭✭eire4


    We are not neutral. We are militarily non aligned. We are very much and very vocally part of the democratic world and opposed to authoritarianism such as the Russian dictatorship.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    What would that role entail? What can Ireland provide?

    Doesn't have the money to buy big guns, planes or boats. Doesn't have the population to create a significant army.

    It does have a lot of land and a big runway out west, so other than providing use of that for planes and maybe installing new radar stations there isn't a lot to offer that I can see.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,637 ✭✭✭eire4


    And we should be playing a commensurate role in the defense of the collective that is the EU from which we garner enormous benefit and not continuing to act as spongers when it comes to defense, security and intelligence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,517 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Swiss GDP - 800 Billion USD

    Irish GDP - 504 Billion USD

    63% their GDP but laughable defence spending in comparison. I'm not saying we have to spend as much as they do but it's not a question of the money not being there. It definitely is. We just chose not to spend it on military defence as we know we can just sponge off NATO nations instead.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,517 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe




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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,848 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Youre right with the first part, we have such weak limp-wristed politicians, they would agree to anything for a little tummy rub

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,243 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    The problem with this line of thinking is that it is reliant upon two very large assumptions.

    1) That the likes of the UK, other EU states and US aren't already occupied dealing with a threat to their actual allies. If Norway is fighting for its territory (on the basis that the declared purpose of the Norwegian defense forces isn't to protect against invasion as much as to try to hold on as much as possible before allies such as the UK, other NATO states and the US show up), they're going to leave Ireland for a 'when we can get around to it' situation and prioritise other problems. Doubtless they will eventually get around to it, but it'll take some time.

    2) That in the period of time that the UK, other EU states and the US actually do get around to coming to Ireland's aid, the citizens of Ireland will be quite happy with the any localised occupation or battles going on on their territory. It's not like Ireland would ever be occupied a la Belgium or Norway in WW2, but specific useful areas like Shannon airport might be objectives. We have recent evidence from a number of conflicts that the presence of hostile troops does not always result in a positive experience for local civilians.


    There is also a knock-on effect perhaps not being considered: Ireland's prosperity is directly linked to that of its trading partners, particularly in the EU. NATO warships keeping an eye on Irish waters cannot be in the Baltic or North Atlantic at the same time. What additional damage may a Baltic country suffer because forces which would otherwise be available to NATO had Ireland the capability to look after its own interests were not present? What additional costs in lives, time and rebuilding Euros would the EU economy have to expend before Ireland's economic position, which would include trade, would return to a pre-conflict level?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,637 ✭✭✭eire4




  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭highpitcheric


    We're net contributors to the EU budget, from which csdp is funded. We're signed up to the nordic battlegroup, Europol (antiterrorism), EU cyber security agency, we lead frontex and csdp missions, provide accommodation to 70,000+ Ukrainian refugees, as well as over €100 million in non-lethal aid and combat training and demining. Also have a long history of providing peacekeepers to the UN.

    Spongers is not an accurate term.



  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭highpitcheric


    EU rapid deployment force is active. And will be 5000 strong by 2025.

    Joint exerises have taken place.

    It will never be time to join nato.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    But that is only an issue if there are two totally unrelated aggressor countries deciding to attack western Europe at the same time. If Norway is being attacked by Russia, because who else would it be, and NATO countries go to their aid then who else is sailing across the Atlantic to also have a pop at Ireland?

    If Russia attacks Ireland on a second front then it's really just the same EU wide attack which you have going on against Norway, or whoever else. Being in NATO or not wouldn't make the slightest difference at that point as it would be NATO v Russia and wherever Russia is attacking would be fair game for NATO response, including if they are trying to use Ireland as a backdoor to the UK / rest of the EU.

    If NATO is dealing with Russia in one place and then Russia decides to also attempt to setup in Ireland, NATO are not going to stand by and wait for them to reach Belfast or Anglesea before taking action on that second front.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don’t really get this nonsense that we’re “sponging” off NATO nations or allied nations (UK, EU, USA), I mean when have we needed them to come help us fight?

    like honestly when’s the last time Ireland needed defence against an attack by hostile forces?

    Oh that’s right when we fought the British 100 years ago..



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,243 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Marching to Belfast is pretty daft, it would provide no particular advantage, certainly not worth the effort. People thinking that Ireland would become this big red blob on the map next to the UK in order to threaten invasion from the West have entirely the wrong idea. Not even the Russians would have the manpower to do that. Controlling discrete areas like Knock or Shannon airports, or Foynes port, however, is a far more realistic option which could have an outsized effect on the lines of communication from North America to Europe without any need to attempt to occupy an entire country, or even a single city. Unless anyone thinks the Russians in 2035 will fully believe that they don't need to intercept the powerhouse of North American manpower or industry in order to win, but I certainly wouldn't make that assumption.

    I agree, NATO would not leave it alone, but I believe we differ on the nature of both the problem and the response. If Ireland were to be used for the one thing it is really useful for, i.e. controlling traffic across the Atlantic, NATO wouldn't just sit by. One could expect repeated attacks on occupied infrastructure, to destroy Russian capability. The US wouldn't be sending the 82nd Airborne to liberate the place, but they will certainly be sending missiles and bombs to blow it up as a much easier way of attaining a similar result. I don't foresee that as being particularly any more beneficial to people who live or work around there than being under the control of an occupying force.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,637 ✭✭✭eire4


    It is with regard to our refusal to fund ourselves an effective military, security and intelligence capability for Ireland.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭highpitcheric


    we have a somewhat effective military, security and intelligence capability.

    so at most we can be somewhat spongers. but then again we're net contributors to the EU so we can't be spongers of Europe.



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