Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Quin_Dub · 06-03-2024 12:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856059#Comment_121856059

What constitutes a "classic" though?

Is it lots of competitive games , regardless of the quality of the rugby on offer with the overall result in question right down to the last minutes of the final game?

I mean you've had multiple games so far this season where the result was in doubt right up to the final whistle , but the quality of Rugby on display in those games was generally speaking , shite. We'll likely have a few more of those before we're finished as well , the remaining fixtures for both Wales and France could all be very tight affairs with the results in question for the entire games.

Ireland vs France last year was a "classic" in my view as it was 2 excellent teams playing at a standard way above anything the other teams could produce , but in truth the result really wasn't in question after about 45/50 minutes.

I heard multiple people describe the Wales vs England game a few weeks ago as "really exciting" but I watched it and thought it was beyond awful because the standard of Rugby was horrible , likewise the England vs. Scotland game , terrible Rugby on display.

That Wales vs England game - A new-comer to watching the sport could have found that really exciting and engaging , but an experienced viewer who played/coached the game would have watched it , appalled at the standard on display.

I guess what I'm saying is that the type of games that excite you are going to be framed by your level of interest and level of knowledge of the game so opinions are going to differ greatly.

Who knows , maybe this year will be considered brilliant because it attracts lots of new viewers because of the "exciting" games??

Shehal · 06-03-2024 12:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121854963#Comment_121854963

I always wonder if you look at the Ireland v NZL game but took Ireland's name out and replaced it with France/SA would people be pushing this narrative of "oh they bottled it"...it's just pure narrative setting, funny how you dont get the same people calling France bottlers for losing a QF, shows its a narrative not based on facts. The way people talk about it you'd swear Ireland lost by 30 points or lost to a mediocre opposition, we lost by 4 points to a NZL side that many claim played their best game in this RWC cycle and probably one of the their best performances in a long long time....how do people look at that and then claim Ireland bottled it. Anyone who claims this just show's of their ignorance and lack of rugby knowledge.

awec · 06-03-2024 12:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856229#Comment_121856229

That's 3 time finalists France and SA who were (at the time) 3 time winners and current holders?

Of course the narrative is totally different, when compared against Ireland who were the best team in the world at the time but were knocked out in the quarter finals for the 8th time.

There's always an excuse. "Oh NZ played their best ever game this cycle". Yea, ok, but we definitely didn't. Again.

As for the other stuff about the 6N, the standard is obviously pretty crap this year. Ireland are literally the only team displaying any sort of form. Wales are a total joke. England are awful. France are bad. Italy are Italy and Scotland are Scotland. Not that we should overly care, but it's the reality of the situation.

Quin_Dub · 06-03-2024 12:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856229#Comment_121856229

Absolutely - Remove the history around Ireland and the world cup and that game would be viewed for what it was , a great game of rugby with the result going to NZ by the bounce of a ball.

Objectively if you were to look at the all the games played in the World Cup and picked out the Top 3 games from the tournament overall in terms of the quality of the Rugby on display, Ireland were involved in 2 of them ( Ireland vs SA and Ireland vs NZ) the other being SA vs France in the other QF.

Because of the craziness of the draw , those 2 QF's were really the Semi-Finals and everyone knew it.

Every dog in the street knew that the finalists were coming from those two QF's and Ireland missed out by a whisker.

As frustrating and maddening as it was calling it a "choke" or "sh!tting the bed" just isn't remotely accurate.

TRC10 · 06-03-2024 12:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121855219#Comment_121855219

came within a score of beating NZ

Congratulations to Ireland on winning the "came within a score of NZ" trophy

OldRio · 06-03-2024 12:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121855981#Comment_121855981

This. 100%

aloooof · 06-03-2024 01:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856300#Comment_121856300

The point wasn't that this should be celebrated.

The point was that this shouldn't be framed as "sh*t the bed / bottled it / choked".

Having said all that, I do understand why someone may not be as invested in this 6 Nations as they would other years...

Mr Tickle · 06-03-2024 01:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121855981#Comment_121855981

Absolutely. The games this year aren't as entertaining as other years. But I'll still enjoy an irish win.

There's also the fact that we've kept up high performance while changing out a number of players in key positions.

There's also the possibility of retaining a slam, which is historically impressive. Never done in the 6 nations, and only a handful of times going all the way back to early 1900's.

Some years the opposition doesn't perform. That doesn't mean that we don't appreciate what our team does.

Shehal · 06-03-2024 01:24PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856283#Comment_121856283

So you are saying if Ireland won 3 RWCs or made 3 RWC finals then losing to NZL in 2023 WOULDNT be a bottling the RWC but because Ireland havent achieved these feats then all of a sudden it IS considered bottling...i'm sorry but this really makes no sense, it doesnt matter how good you were in the past, bottling it is bottling it and you cant pick and choose which is which just because of a countries pedigree in the competition.

Again I don't really see how this being the 8th QF loss in a row plays into it...I mean with a straight face can you honestly compare this loss to any of the previous QF losses? Also by this virtue does that mean France were also bottlers seeing as they also lost in the QF's when they were one of the favourites to win?

No offence but like I alluded to in the previous comment this sort of thinking just show's up you're rugby knowledge if you honestly try push this narrative that this is like previous RWC's, it was made clear for years almost that this was ridiculously lopsided draw which meant 2 great sides were going to be eliminated and if any of the other 3 were to suffer the same fate as Ireland they wouldn't be getting this crap but because it's Ireland that suffered it they get it because it's an easy stick to beat them with. But at the end of the day all the people that do this show is that they are either trying to wind people up, are a troll or just havent clue about rugby.

Billy_the_Kid · 06-03-2024 01:45PM

Has mystic Gerry released his probable team yet ?

pickarooney · 06-03-2024 02:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856059#Comment_121856059

Normal enough. Every iteration of a tournament can't be a classic or the word would be meaningless. About 1 in 10 championships are classics, some are extremely competitive and some have a series of matches where the most discussed thing is the ref

06-03-2024 02:20PM

I think if you are still struggling to watch rugby matches 6 months on from the RWC, its possible you didn't like the sport all that much to begin with.

pickarooney · 06-03-2024 02:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121855981#Comment_121855981

If we're talking about the same post, he said he probably would watch it but wasn't as excited as usual. Unless you mean a different post or you misread/misremembered, this is the kind of bad faith posting I was taking about.

pickarooney · 06-03-2024 02:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856229#Comment_121856229

I don't think Ireland bottled it against NZ. They shot themselves in the foot with a terrible start but they rallied and came up short.

France absolutely bottled it against SA, though. They couldn't catch a ball to save their lives that day. And underneath all the whingeing about cheating Saffers and anglo-saxon conspiracies, French fans know this was the case. Now that the refs have favoured them in successive games they're forced to admit their team is playing way below their potential.

SaoPaulo41 · 06-03-2024 02:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856579#Comment_121856579

He will wait until after todays session, but he will put something out this evening.

Podge_irl · 06-03-2024 02:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856712#Comment_121856712

If only 1 in 10 are a "classic" then it not being a classic is not much of a criticism or reason to not care about it.

I mean the 2015 Super Saturday (can't believe it was that long ago!) was a great ending to an otherwise unmemorable 6N.

If people aren't that engaged with this 6N then fine, it's a personal thing. I don't entirely understand it but so be it.

Shehal · 06-03-2024 02:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856799#Comment_121856799

Exactly this, I just find it ironic how its Ireland that are the team accused of bottling it. Even looking at the way two sides have responded to the fairly show's who the real bottle jobs were, France let the occasion get to them and now are broken as a result Ireland on the other hand did not and in the end just lost to the better side on the day and have responded like how you'd expect a great side to respond.

pickarooney · 06-03-2024 02:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856818#Comment_121856818

You're probably just paying more attention to what Irish fans are saying, i e. the ones emotionally invested enough to use that kind of phrase. France have lost 3 world cup finals. Irish fans are presumably not attached enough to consider them bottlers.

Does anyone know what has to happen this week to open it up for a maximum of possible outcomes?

Scotland, England, France with TBPs. Scotland beat Ireland by <7, England v France to go to the wire, England leading by 11 with 3 tries and with 5 mins to go, France to score at the death to give Scotland the title?

High scoring draw in Ireland/Scotland, Sco with TBP, Ireland without, England need a TBP against France to win it

irelandrover · 06-03-2024 02:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856769#Comment_121856769

1st time in yonks that I really aren't excited playing England. I probably will watch it. Still haven't watched the match v Wales.

Not at all. Just tired of the false dawns. It blows. A six nations glosses over the fact that once again we crapped the bed when it matters.

Just the hangover of another failure when it mattered!

These are the quotes I referred to. He did indeed say that he didn't watch the Wales game and would probably watch the England game. He mentioned crapping the bed when it matters. So can you point out where i was posting in bad faith.

Dubinusa · 06-03-2024 03:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121855943#Comment_121855943

I do enjoy Ireland winning. Winning the 6nations is great. But this year's edition is completely awful. I fully expect to win the grand slam. But winning this year, is in my opinion, less than winning the world cup. For me, winning the world cup is the pinnacle, just my opinion. I can't get my ya-ya's up for beating the likes of Italy and Wales.

As an aside, I bet the kiwi supporters care more for the world cup than the rugby championship. No matter the small margins, us coming up short in October has taken a bite out of my enjoyment for this 6nations.

Dubinusa · 06-03-2024 03:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856229#Comment_121856229

If Ireland had beaten the kiwis, I'd have been thrilled. But we fell short again! No matter how. We fell flat. We lost a great game of rugby to a very good side, no shame in that. This world cup was our chance to break the curse, we didn't and I'm deflated. It's my thoughts and just how I feel. No disrespect intended to anyone on here, if I feel and think this 6nations is secondary. You're all free to think your own way and to support the team. I'm just Hungover from that loss and this 6nations is in my opinion, muck.

Lost Ormond · 06-03-2024 03:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121857038#Comment_121857038

Can you please in some of your many criticisms say why something ia awful. Maybe back that up with comparisons/evidence compared to previous good tournaments??

Of course winning the 6 nations is less than winning the world cup. Not 1 person here has said anything like that.

Dubinusa · 06-03-2024 03:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121857115#Comment_121857115

It's not a trial. I don't need CSI. It's my opinion.

Alternatively if anyone thinks Wales/Italy or England are good teams have at it. My eyes are the evidence.

Lost Ormond · 06-03-2024 03:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121857138#Comment_121857138

It isnt a trial but back up your point a bit. You have been saying for quite a while oh it was s***. Yet never really said why or how it was poor.

How can anyone take you seriously if you go oh theyre ****. And then say nothing about why you think they are and just say because they are **** if anyone questions you!

sydthebeat · 06-03-2024 03:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121857138#Comment_121857138

pretty much everyone in the world bar ireland and portugal (and possibly fiji) right now are crap.

SA havent played since November so we're not sure where they are at, apart from being RWC champions.

NZ are in transition and TRC will be an interesting competition to see where they are at. The didnt win the last RWC so as far as their fans are concerned, they unachieved. Australia are, hopefully, at the bottom of their bucket and Schmidt can improve them, but they are dog sh!t currently.

France and england are severely underperforming. wales are crap but in transition and probably doing better than expected. Italy were dog sh!t in the RWC and a bit better in the 6N so unfair to lump them in with France and England as underperforming.

so thats it really.

One tier 1 nation is performing at the top of their game. Is that irelands fault? does that devalue a grand slam?

hey, maybe england will turn ireland over in twickenham and you all can be happy again. doubt it though.

Burkie1203 · 06-03-2024 03:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121857038#Comment_121857038

Fans don't have to ensure the financial viability of the game going forward so their opinions count for nowt when it comes to the way a Union does things.

NZ have won 20 out of 28 TriNations/RC. Ireland have won 5 out of the 24 6nations

6nations and AI are key components of the financial viability of rugby here and while winning the world cup would have been great. It should take away from the next game or tournament.

Shehal · 06-03-2024 06:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121857104#Comment_121857104

Well most team's that win their pool at a RWC don't have to play a team of NZL standard in a QF. You might have a point if Ireland got their asses handed to them but they lost a close game, idk how anyone can watch that match and come to the conclusion that they are bottlers...do you think if Ireland had a normal quarter final, i.e like Wales & England had in 2019 or 2023, this year that Ireland would have lost with that level of performance? 2011 & 2015 were definetly bottle jobs, 2019 the entire year was a bottle job never mind the tournament but that isn't the case in 2023.

sprucemoose · 06-03-2024 06:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121856300#Comment_121856300

congratulations on missing the point completely

Neil3030 · 06-03-2024 06:40PM

You know what this debate needs? Some good old pseudo contrarian, "all I'm saying is" energy.

I'm happy to help.

Ireland did not "bottle it" or "choke" in the world cup. However I'm increasingly convinced that the counter narrative is going too far the other way. That is, in the context of gleeful mockery by the "HAHA WORLD CUP BOTTLERS" Delegation (HWCBD), defenders of the Irish side have mostly settled on a narrative of "thems the breaks", "we lost a close game", "NZ are a great team", "if Kelleher scores that try", "it is what it is".

We lost to a very good team, but it was still an upset. And I think that aspect is being lost in the above counter narrative. Argentina are currently ranked #1 in men's Soccer. If they had lost to Belgium (#4) in a soccer World Cup quarter final, the world would have considered that an upset. Argentina would be hugely disappointed and would need to find out why a team inferior to them (albeit marginally) beat them in a hugely important game. And nobody would consider this a hysterical over reaction.

But such reflection seems less accepted for Irish rugby. And I get it, the HWCBD are insufferable. You are reluctant to give them an inch. But as time rolls on, and as we dismantle opposition in this years Six Nations, it does hold our RWC exit in context. And I think outright acceptance of the latter is itself guilty of undervaluing ourselves in the present moment. And ultimately guilty too of allowing a very irritating cohort to indirectly control a narrative.

pickarooney · 06-03-2024 06:51PM

Argentina lost to Saudi Arabia on that World Cup. Belgium would hardly be an upset by comparison.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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