Lads I think you can both be right.
I would think its very relevant to add this:
30secs (!) on the clock penalty to NZ. Barnes pings Porter at a ruck on the NZ 22'.
1min 30s - Mo'unga miscues clearing kick. Barnes gives knock-on against Ringrose (it came of Retallick) Scrum NZ just outside 22'.
2min 30s - Barnes pings Porter with NZ scrum going backwards.
6min 20s - Barnes pings Beirne in Irish 22' for 'not rolling away'(!)
This was after 30 phases of heroic defending.
7min 50s - 3v0 NZ
NOTE: Ireland have not had possession yet.
Now I'm going to say it. If it was another ref the maj of those decisions would not have gone against Ireland that day.
NZ actually started that game very nervously.
8min 55s - Barnes pings Savea for not rolling away. Inside the NZ 10m
Ireland kick for the corner.........
I could go on but lets just agree Ireland went down swinging that day.
They are a great side. They deserve to win another Grand Slam this year. And we are going to love every minute of it!
Cant wait for Saturday!
No Ringrose, maybe not at 100% yet and Frawley needed to cover at FB
Going 13-0 down to NZ is pretty much the definition of screwing up!
Costing us scoring opportunities with bad decision making is just part and parcel of our play in the first 20 which was nervy and unlike us. It put us in a hole which we never got out of. I'm relatively sanguine about the whole thing at this point - it was a bad defeat but I can live with it. Far better than almost all our previous world cup showings.
Looks strong
Yes and no. JGP made two bad decisions when we were on their line that cost us scoring opportunities, but we were on their line nonetheless. Putting them under serious pressure.
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Lads! I admire you all for being able to move ahead. I really do! I'm just in the stages of grief. I honestly thought that we would win the world cup. I'll enjoy a grand slam. But, what could have been.
You misread me. I'm not saying what you are implying. My hopes for this 6nations are well below usual standards, due to the loss at the world cup.
Ireland should and will complete a grand slam. They are the best team involved... by a big margin. I'm just not as invested this time. I've been unable to get past the loss. I would say there's similar feelings in N.Z.
I never said they were bottlers. Far from it. That loss though, has gave me a right boot up the hole.
The betting handicaps are certainly one way to assess the degree of upset. But they would also be pricing in market expectation of an upset given that it was Ireland in a QF in the RWC. Anyone's guess as to how many points that took from the spread.
Fact is, as you say, we had won close to 20 games in a row, were #1 in the world, had beaten the team then ranked #2 in the pool stage, faced a team ranked #4 where we had recently won a tour. Removing the context of the QF, that speaks to a likelihood of victory higher than what a 3-4 point spread would predict, imo.
But we lost. And I'd rather not capitulate to trolls, reflect on it maturely, acknowledge the disappointment, and identify the specifics of what went wrong. (Podge lists one such reason above).
Any leaked teams yet ?
Again it's an opinion. But just to point out the fact that France are absolutely muck. Drew with the Azzurri! I fully expect Ireland to win this week. They should do comfortably.
The Telegraph is reporting that Immanuel Feyi-Waboso is set to start for England this weekend. They have a limited attacking structure, but any opportunity this guy gets in space will be a big danger for Ireland. He looks electric.
We absolutely screwed up the opening 20 minutes. It is a very different type of screwing up from other years, but it is what it is at this point.
Cant understand it myself considering the brilliance of this Irish side and reflecting on how far Irish rugby has come since 1997
Long post of reflection!
As as starting point Italy were arguably a better team than Ireland in 1997.
Troncon, Dominguez, the Cuttitta brothers, Orlandi, Checchinato, Gardner, Vaccari, Stoica were all mainstays compared to Irelands disorganised rabble.
Then BOD arrived in '99.
Lens (Argentina were also prob better)
Even after the 2000 6N hammering by England it was obvious (if you scratched beneath the surface) that Ireland had The Blueprint for success (Schools-IRFU Provinces)
Then the Famous 5 v Scot
The Paris hat-trick
Then the EO'S sides provided The Background for more success
The Munster backbone
The Leinster flair
The Triple Crown (7th in history!!)
Another Triple Crown
Then Munster champions of Europe
Triple Crown Again
Then Munster again
Then Leinster
Then the Grand Slam (2nd!!)
Then Leinster again
Then Wales in the QF
This was the junction in the road. 10 years on from EO'S providing the background for Kidneys Grand Salm team... would Ireland make the next step?
The Joe Schmidt era to me has been The Springboard that Irish rugby needed. 2 more Championships and another Grand Salm.
.......but ultimately yet more abject failures at the RWC.
In Feb '21 I would have swapped all the Irish provincial wins in Europe for the Welsh national side 2000-2021 achievements.
Wales: 4 GS & 2 RWC SFs v Ireland: 2 GS & 0 RWC SF's
Farrells Grand Slam (4th) era was almost the perfect lead up to the WC.
.......but ultimately more failure at the RWC.
BUT this WAS different. Yes it was a QF defeat yet again but I felt that particular game was just on the day. 8 out of 10 games Ireland win that game.
& I'll take it and embrace the current success BECAUSE Ireland will not only win another Grand Slam this year I think they will win yet another one next year.
Plus the future looks very bright - Unprecedented U-20 success (Back-to-back Grand Slams and a WC Final)
The Blueprint. The Background. The Springboard.....- Diving analogy - This side has Style, Degree of Difficulty made look easy with excellent Execution and excellent Synchronisation.
Lots of work still to be done in the provinces (& new International caps) for the Perfect 10 at RWC 2027
In the meantime I will love each and every precious Grand Slam.
2000-2023 Honours and achievements
1. England: 2 GS & 1 RWC Win, 2 RWC Finals & RWC SF, and 5 6N
2. France: 4 GS & 1 RWC Final & 2 RWC SF's, and 2 6N
3. Wales: 4 GS & 2 RWC SFs, and 2 6N
4. Ireland: 3 GS and 2 6N
The handicap for the Ireland v NZL game was only 3-4 points if I'm not mistaken, based on you're definition its an upset but by most people's definition it's not, that sort of handicap is nothing and is suggesting the game is too close to call.
The context is in 21 matches Ireland have won 20 and the one loss was a one score defeat in a game that could have gone either way. One game simply isnt enough information to go on to make any sort of conclusion unless it's just trying to fufill a narrative, which many on here are trying (namely TRC and Dubinusa).
Argentina lost to Saudi Arabia on that World Cup. Belgium would hardly be an upset by comparison.
You know what this debate needs? Some good old pseudo contrarian, "all I'm saying is" energy.
I'm happy to help.
Ireland did not "bottle it" or "choke" in the world cup. However I'm increasingly convinced that the counter narrative is going too far the other way. That is, in the context of gleeful mockery by the "HAHA WORLD CUP BOTTLERS" Delegation (HWCBD), defenders of the Irish side have mostly settled on a narrative of "thems the breaks", "we lost a close game", "NZ are a great team", "if Kelleher scores that try", "it is what it is".
We lost to a very good team, but it was still an upset. And I think that aspect is being lost in the above counter narrative. Argentina are currently ranked #1 in men's Soccer. If they had lost to Belgium (#4) in a soccer World Cup quarter final, the world would have considered that an upset. Argentina would be hugely disappointed and would need to find out why a team inferior to them (albeit marginally) beat them in a hugely important game. And nobody would consider this a hysterical over reaction.
But such reflection seems less accepted for Irish rugby. And I get it, the HWCBD are insufferable. You are reluctant to give them an inch. But as time rolls on, and as we dismantle opposition in this years Six Nations, it does hold our RWC exit in context. And I think outright acceptance of the latter is itself guilty of undervaluing ourselves in the present moment. And ultimately guilty too of allowing a very irritating cohort to indirectly control a narrative.
congratulations on missing the point completely
Well most team's that win their pool at a RWC don't have to play a team of NZL standard in a QF. You might have a point if Ireland got their asses handed to them but they lost a close game, idk how anyone can watch that match and come to the conclusion that they are bottlers...do you think if Ireland had a normal quarter final, i.e like Wales & England had in 2019 or 2023, this year that Ireland would have lost with that level of performance? 2011 & 2015 were definetly bottle jobs, 2019 the entire year was a bottle job never mind the tournament but that isn't the case in 2023.
Fans don't have to ensure the financial viability of the game going forward so their opinions count for nowt when it comes to the way a Union does things.
NZ have won 20 out of 28 TriNations/RC. Ireland have won 5 out of the 24 6nations
6nations and AI are key components of the financial viability of rugby here and while winning the world cup would have been great. It should take away from the next game or tournament.
pretty much everyone in the world bar ireland and portugal (and possibly fiji) right now are crap.
SA havent played since November so we're not sure where they are at, apart from being RWC champions.
NZ are in transition and TRC will be an interesting competition to see where they are at. The didnt win the last RWC so as far as their fans are concerned, they unachieved. Australia are, hopefully, at the bottom of their bucket and Schmidt can improve them, but they are dog sh!t currently.
France and england are severely underperforming. wales are crap but in transition and probably doing better than expected. Italy were dog sh!t in the RWC and a bit better in the 6N so unfair to lump them in with France and England as underperforming.
so thats it really.
One tier 1 nation is performing at the top of their game. Is that irelands fault? does that devalue a grand slam?
hey, maybe england will turn ireland over in twickenham and you all can be happy again. doubt it though.
It isnt a trial but back up your point a bit. You have been saying for quite a while oh it was s***. Yet never really said why or how it was poor.
How can anyone take you seriously if you go oh theyre ****. And then say nothing about why you think they are and just say because they are **** if anyone questions you!
It's not a trial. I don't need CSI. It's my opinion.
Alternatively if anyone thinks Wales/Italy or England are good teams have at it. My eyes are the evidence.
Can you please in some of your many criticisms say why something ia awful. Maybe back that up with comparisons/evidence compared to previous good tournaments??
Of course winning the 6 nations is less than winning the world cup. Not 1 person here has said anything like that.
If Ireland had beaten the kiwis, I'd have been thrilled. But we fell short again! No matter how. We fell flat. We lost a great game of rugby to a very good side, no shame in that. This world cup was our chance to break the curse, we didn't and I'm deflated. It's my thoughts and just how I feel. No disrespect intended to anyone on here, if I feel and think this 6nations is secondary. You're all free to think your own way and to support the team. I'm just Hungover from that loss and this 6nations is in my opinion, muck.
I do enjoy Ireland winning. Winning the 6nations is great. But this year's edition is completely awful. I fully expect to win the grand slam. But winning this year, is in my opinion, less than winning the world cup. For me, winning the world cup is the pinnacle, just my opinion. I can't get my ya-ya's up for beating the likes of Italy and Wales.
As an aside, I bet the kiwi supporters care more for the world cup than the rugby championship. No matter the small margins, us coming up short in October has taken a bite out of my enjoyment for this 6nations.
1st time in yonks that I really aren't excited playing England. I probably will watch it. Still haven't watched the match v Wales.
Not at all. Just tired of the false dawns. It blows. A six nations glosses over the fact that once again we crapped the bed when it matters.
Just the hangover of another failure when it mattered!
These are the quotes I referred to. He did indeed say that he didn't watch the Wales game and would probably watch the England game. He mentioned crapping the bed when it matters. So can you point out where i was posting in bad faith.
You're probably just paying more attention to what Irish fans are saying, i e. the ones emotionally invested enough to use that kind of phrase. France have lost 3 world cup finals. Irish fans are presumably not attached enough to consider them bottlers.
Does anyone know what has to happen this week to open it up for a maximum of possible outcomes?
Scotland, England, France with TBPs. Scotland beat Ireland by <7, England v France to go to the wire, England leading by 11 with 3 tries and with 5 mins to go, France to score at the death to give Scotland the title?
High scoring draw in Ireland/Scotland, Sco with TBP, Ireland without, England need a TBP against France to win it
Exactly this, I just find it ironic how its Ireland that are the team accused of bottling it. Even looking at the way two sides have responded to the fairly show's who the real bottle jobs were, France let the occasion get to them and now are broken as a result Ireland on the other hand did not and in the end just lost to the better side on the day and have responded like how you'd expect a great side to respond.
