Union Jack in Ireland? **Mod Note In Post #59**

I agree.

I googled it and it’s much the same as here ( ni ). It’s taught in gaelscoils but outside that it’s only offered for secondary schools I think.

Good post, apologies for my tardiness coming back to you.

Agreed on our ties with the UK however I also referred to India in my post, my point was regarding the the Union Jack and the Nazi Flag are comparable on the world stage. Which I think is fair given their respective body counts, although maybe I'm being harsh on the Nazis.😆

Regarding RIC men, I'm sure for most it was a job, a source of income and yes at the time they were not an occupying force, there was no Irish State, we were part of the UK.

Still though I don't know why you'd think it's farcical to link the Union Jack to the Nazi Flag? Agreed on our genealogy. I am literally that bag of all sorts you listed when I look at my grandparents surnames. And yes our current brand of Irishness is a recent invention however Cromwell/Penal Laws/The Great Hunger sort of wiped out our culture. It's funny I was reading a thread here a few weeks ago on food culture and there was some good posts about how ours was wiped out.

So what is Irishness, well these days it's having a passport with a harp on it and woe betide any who say different. For the interest of discussion we'll have to set aside modern sensibilities. For example was Arthur Guinness Irish? I'd say no, sure he was born here but his sensibilities/culture would have been English. Maybe he loved a puck around, I'm just using him as an example of the landed Anglo-Irish second generation types. So who's really Irish or are they all gone?

Well Ireland has had over 100 years having a run of it on their own, still have the major cultural ties to the UK across the water. Your throw away argument about the RIC could be used about the Gardai, it is just a job. With a uniform and the better chance of scoring in Coppers.

It is not lost on me either that the cohort that would view the Union Jack as equivalent to the "Nazi flag" would have had no problem with the shooting/killing of Gardai such as -

Gardai - McCabe 1996, Hand 1984, Sheehan 1983, Quaid 1980, Clerkin 1976, Donegan 1972, Mordaunt 1942, O'Brien 1942, Hyland/McKeown/Roache 1940, Fitzsimons/Ward 1926, Phelan 1922 were all murdered/killed by subversives in "operations"

And of course the other irony is those who you would term as viewing the Union Flag as the Nazi flag is even more ironic considering that a subsection who wanted to subvert the Saorstat and Britain - they even tried and failed to collude with the Nazi's in this aim. You need only look up Sean Russell (a statue of whom is Fairview Park).

So let's not cod ourselves that those who would view the British Flag as akin to the Nazi means they are/were somehow benevolent/righteous in mindset. They wanted to bring the British government to "it's knees" and did not/do not recognise the democratically elected ROI/Free State. Of whom they saw as "legitimate targets". In fact Republican's from a certain party have this odd pretence of pretending that the ROI/NI do not exist. They refuse to use the given names that the majority of Irish people know it as. Again very odd behaviour.

Plus there is constant intertwining between Irish and British culture from the past and even now. Even when Ireland (Saorstat/ROI) got independence the Irish Civil Service were British for decades. Then you add in the use of the British Jurisprudence system, it has been integral in Irish law, then there is the link with language of which we are now communicating.

Even looking at the Anglo-Irish in Ireland again integral to Irish culture and society. OK in an Phoblacht would only mention the likes of Wolfe Tone. But there is the Likes of Lady Valerie Goulding who set up the CRC along with her social circle, Lord Mount Charles who made Slane for Music Festivals what it is, and of course the Guinness family who were also Anglo-Irish. A company people were falling over themselves to get a job in as the employees were treated well It seems like a very indoctrinated narrow view of Irish history for Irish people to have such a fear of a Union Jack.

How many "Republican's" have drank a pint of Guinness (founded by an Anglo-Irish family and ironically now owned by an English company) and attended concerts in Slane? Then looking at Irish bands and sportspeople, Phil Lynott born in England, Paul McGrath born in England, The Edge from U2 born in Essex - Welsh parents. Yet they are lauded as icons.

Or you can look at "icons" backgrounds Padraig Pearse who owed his comfortable lifestyle/rearing to Britain - his father was from Birmingham and was trained as a stonemason.

It is odd, it seems very confused. Just as confused how when an Irish publican would put on the (English) FA Cup yet mutes "God Save the Queen/King. While the Irish people then fervently cheer on the two respective British sides they "support".

Again anyone who compares the Union Jack to the Nazi flag and seriously means it needs to take a long hard look at themselves, look around them and learn their history. Because that is farcical. They basically have 'issues'/confused/are looking for something to whinge about.

People will not take issue with flags much anymore unless they are used to be deliberately provocative or to taunt. I'm struggling to think of any major problem with the British flag flying here in the way foreign flags are flown. Maybe odd incidents of individual anger.

Same with the idea that current British people are being 'blamed' for the sins of Empire or even atrocities committed here since the end of Empire. Ordinary British people aren't being blamed.

The only issue taken is when the acts of Empire are watered down (as @gormdubhgorm is trying to do with the 'lookoverthere' posts) or denied or are depicted as some kind of benign gifters to indigenous 'savages' who should be grateful for the infrastructure and 'civilising' the Empire engaged in.(that theory has been offered on these forums too)

See you are proving my point with the phrase "body counts" - the truth is you could say that for a lot of flags around the world. But you no doubt think of the Union Jack - first when using the term. But that is your own personal view, which is sort of antiquated and archaic IMO. Rather than looking at another countries flag they should first look at themselves and ask why do they have such a reaction?

For an Irish person to be so insecure about the Union Jack now probably says more about their own insecurities/background rather than anything else. Today Irish people are European welding enormous soft power in the EU, and ironically the main English speaking country in the EU. The people that have a strange reaction towards the Union Jack from Ireland have a parish pump narrow mentality.

Would they do the same if they saw the flag of the Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, Portugal or Spain? All colonialists in some form or another in the past. But the Europeans have moved on and have created one of the best trading grouping in history without a single shot being fired. Citizens of the EU. Which Ireland has prospered greatly from. The EU now has countries working side by side who were once at war France/Germany - Poland/Lithuania for example.

That was the idea of the European Union to create closer ties among nations culturally and economically to hopefully prevent future wars amongst each other. It ultimately has been very successful project. So for Irish people to be worrying about the Union Jack flag seems very inconsequential and small minded. Especially when most of Europe has moved on on grown up.

As another poster said these days most people do not care about the Union Jack ironically the only types that care about such things are those who are hung up on symbolism - whether that be the tricolour or the Union Jack, as their whole sense of self is wrapped up in such symbols.

Also for an Irish person to hate the Union Jack, there is a sense of the "bogeyman" mentality about it. To feel Irish their only outlet is to hate/dislike something British - the Union Jack is an easy outlet. Rather than develop themselves at a personal level, in productive positive hobbies. Instead they have to find who they are in something that they feel they are not - ie the Union Jack.

Yet when the dichotomy of the intertwining of the history of Ireland and Britain along with culture, arts, music etc then such individuals have to use cognitive dissonance to "explain" their hatred of a flag. It must take enormous mental gymnastics, and it must be very tiring mentally to worry about such minor things. The stress cannot be very good.

I can remember a fella that used to go to a gym I used to frequent he was nicknamed "IRA Jimmy" by those in the gym because he spent a lot of his time worrying about "The Brits". He was a Dublin inner city fella, he even had a dog called "Provo". (I am not making that up.) He would spend his time expressing his disgust at Martin McGuinness shaking hands with the Queen. Or telling me how great the Wolfe Tones "Helicopter Song" is. Think Dublin inner city character, harmless really.

I was told the local Gardai knew him by name and would ask him has he got rid of the Brits yet? When he would be out and about. While he would be roaring at the top of his voice "PROVO' 'PROVO' as his dog would be running away from him.

This whole mindset seemed to be his whole identity. He was very wrapped up in it. He did not seem to have any other hobbies, just sitting in the sauna, jumping in the pool, and giving out about the Brits, or lamenting the fact he regrets that he has no Irish language skills. But he would know things like how Padraig Pearse's father was a mason from Birmingham. Which is why I remembered it. And he seemingly knew ahem "characters" in Portlaoise prison.

He was an alcoholic who gave up the drink, one of his lines used to be "there is no one in the pubs any more" to apparently console himself that he was not missing out

But yet he would ask things like did you see the match?

"What match?", I would say.

"United and Liverpool......" he would say. (It was always English Premier League)

So in my mind it is only the only type of people who would have real antipathy/worry towards/about the Union Jack flag would be the "IRA Jimmy's" of this world.

fairly sure there are no laws about flying the union flag in ireland (pedantic hat on: its the union jack when on a ship, its the union flag when flying everywhere else ... dont ask!) . doesnt mean that there will not be very strong reaction to seen it flown here.

There are many protocols about flag flying in every country , eg cant fly at night, cant toucht the ground, and which flag goes on which flag pole (left to right, height, etc) .... and when one flag can be flown over another on the same pole. It can be done, but the national flag has to be higher on the pole and the other (non-national, eg GAA county colours, or pirate flag, or olympic flag) goes below. 2 national flags cant be on the same pole. Then again, you wont get arrested for it if you do ... its not illegal.

And ....the union flag has been flown over croagh park many times ..... its part of the australian flag :)

There's a reason it's called the Butcher's Apron, but you seem not to want to know.

If you were to consider the list of genocides carried out by the British and it might give you a better perspective.

A few posters should check out the cross of St. Patrick is its on the Union Jack for a reason.

The pronunciation is quite different, but if you were to hear it all the time you will doubtless become accustomed.

The grammar and vocabulary are a bigger difficulty, and while Scottish Gaelic and Irish used to form a continuum of dialects from Kerry to Sutherland (ó Chiarraí go Cait as is said in Irish) nowadays there is quite a large gap, in distance and also in similarity between the northeasternmost dialect of Irish and the sothernmost dialect of Gàidhlig. i.e. Fanad in Co Donegal and Ìle/Islay in Scotland; while both of these dialects are still spoken, I don't think either is in the best of health.

I have often thought that it would be helpful to have one character on each children's program on TG4 speaking Gàidhlig and if possible vice versa in Scotland, in order to bring speakers of the two languages/dialects closer together.

This is exactly the strange/archaic indoctrinated attitude I was referring to. People with a very selective narrow view of history. It is just odd. I find it very hard to take seriously. Yet here we are conversing in the tongue of the "enemy". And no doubt you and people like you are/were glued to shows such as "Britain got talent". "Strictly come dancing", "Coronation street", "Eastenders" or whatever. In how many homes has the the Union Jack arrived in Ireland through old media/new media?

And someone remind me again how many sales Oasis had in the Republic of Ireland how many no1's? And this is a man of two Irish parents.

Or the spice girls?

Look at this Harry Styles pin

Even the still popular Taylor Swift has worn Union Jack clothing

Here is Ed Sheeran at the Brit awards

So who is codding who here with the Derek Warfield type chat of genocide? The reality is a lot more complex than you like to let on.

You and people like you just have unresolved issues with their own nationality and sense of self. Real deep seated insecurities, in my opinion.

So the Union Jack is an easy target for you, it is much easier to project hatred on a symbol than question what makes you Irish. That is the truth of it in your case, and in the case of like-minded people like you. It is almost child-like in it's mentality.

It is basically an inferiority complex or as Gaeilge "coimpléasc ísleachta". If you were stronger in your own identity/and broader sense of history you would not have such pretence of a visceral hatred of the Union Jack.

Correct. The cross of Saint Patrick was incorporated into the Union Jack in 1801 to represent Ireland. By 1913, the British Empire held sway over 412 million people, 23 per cent of the world population at the time, and by 1920, it covered 35.5 million km2 (13.7 million sq mi), 24 per cent of the Earth's total land area. And the Irish played quite a part in that, in every corner of the world, bringing civilization, law, order, infrastructure, railways,etc. Not saying it was perfect, but the commonwealth generally recognises the alternative was much worse.

Good points.

Regarding the ROI national anthem.

When it's played before a rugby match in the Aviva it is sung loudly by the so called west brits.

Played in croke park at a gaa match and just a low mumbling with roaring two thirds way through , by the real Irish patriots.

The point I made, which you seemed to miss:

You gave the reason why it was incorporated in the flag without anyone being asked here.

They did what they wanted - this we know. And because they did that the Empire collapsed and is no more.

The answer to that is not = 'Shure there were other empires and the British one was the best'

You can keep plucking the actions of a few all you want.

They are no more indicative of a general insecurity or bigotry than the actions of a few in any other country.