Leinster Team Talk Thread (Love you Furlong time)

Dubinusa · 01-01-2024 10:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559131#Comment_121559131

Nienaber is getting settled in but, Ringrose is in a funk and has been since returning. The space left open with this defensive structure is being manipulated consistent. I'm not sure if it's worth it?

jacothelad · 01-01-2024 10:36PM

It concerns me, with the upcoming 6 Nations almost upon us, that Leinster ...and by extension Ireland seem suddenly a bit rudderless. They are still the best team in the URC and while I am delighted Ulster have blagged a win, Leinster had enough possession for them normally to win 2 games. The ferocity of the Leinster forwards was epic at times and Ulster were nearly always on the back foot, but where was the cutting edge apart from the maul.

The Leinster outside players suddenly haven't lost their skills or surely their game plays. They were up against an Ulster backline containing Stockdale who couldn't catch a cold or tackle a plate of chips and Luke Marshall playing a very rare game and Addison who is still very rusty after 2 years out. Conditions were crap but you would expect Leinster to have been more inventive in attack. Surely the small % that commentators say was missing from Leinster over the last 2 years and which Neinaber has been introduced to address should have been introduced by evolution rather than revolution.

ersatz · 01-01-2024 10:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558933#Comment_121558933

Well put. Between whatever the new system is and poor conditions its hard to see beyond a few players going very well like McCarthy, Doris, Baird and a couple of others and another set not doing much (JGP, Henshaw). I can't see that SA's kicking game would suit Leinster exactly and there seems to be a lot of room in behind which Burns was alert to. It's a big ask for the back 3 while against well organized teams it also risks counter attack. One or two going wrong and any team (bar SA) need a fairly strong plan B. Leinster are a long way from that on the evidence of today. A bigger issue for me though was leadership. Without Ryan and Ringrose in the forwards and backs you'd wonder where the organizational discipline comes from. Doris isn't very experienced in that regard and probably has his hands full focussing on the ref. To me that's another area of weakness for Leinster without any easy fix.

Paul Smeenus · 01-01-2024 10:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559000#Comment_121559000

Correct. He's not, and no-one said he was. You could certainly look upwards in the posts and see me saying - literally - that Prendergast would probably be playing for Ireland deservedly - before Burns ever would.

But that wouldn't suit your hysterical, hyperbolic mindset.

I actually expected better of you, Dub.

Paul Smeenus · 01-01-2024 11:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558901#Comment_121558901

That'd be 100% fair enough.

As an Ulster fan - I have been there.

ironingbored · 01-01-2024 11:04PM

Enjoyable evening in the north stand tonight. Only just drying out!

Couple of terrible calls from Murphy; the Refell turnover and Ulster players sealing off after the kick from Russell. Game changing decisions.

Joe Carthy was an absolute beast.

Ben Bailey · 01-01-2024 11:47PM

Great performance from Ulster today. They needed to build on recent form with an away win.

Burns, Cooney & Timoney were standouts.

Leinster's kicking from hand was ineffective. Defensive lineout was outstanding. Scrums were either steady or a mess, usually created by Leinster seeking a penalty advantage & sending the 'wrong picture' to the officials instead of seeking quick clean possession. Thought Prendergast went well, JGP less so (particularly with the boot) and a couple of high risk with low return choices.

Hard to criticise Henshaw or Turner in those conditions. Thought we should have brought Russell in for strike plays more often.

Dubinusa · 01-01-2024 11:54PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559270#Comment_121559270

Yep! It's strange.

Tim Robbins · 02-01-2024 12:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121558374#Comment_121558374

One weakness Harry B has is game management and kicking in a critical / high pressure situation. He can blow hot and cold and was the same in U20s. I've said it several times, I'd prefer we stuck with Frawley there and he was number 2 outhalf.

Bit problem for Leinster is no Leinster A. Meaning, the only way to give Sam P game time is to play URC. It's a bit of a mess because you now have four outhalfs who can't get regular gametime. Sexton was hot and cold until he had clocked up enough caps and had that famous end to 2009.

Dubinusa · 02-01-2024 04:20AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121559780#Comment_121559780

Harry had a bad bit of luck with the bounce of the ball. Can't lay the loss on him when we controlled possession, territory and couldn't move the pill through the backs. There were several problems today. Our kicking game was average. Park was hit and miss on a couple of garryowens. Prendergast had a couple of bad kicks too. There was the one he hoisted and was too far for the chase, gifting possession back to Ulster.

Clarkson did well! Beginning to see improvement. Baird was brilliant. McCarthy except for a couple of penalties, was great.

The space behind the rush is acres. Burns exploited this brilliantly. Lots to fix here. It was a good match, though.

Buer · 02-01-2024 10:04AM

Quite a concerning performance. It has been said on a number of occasions that the new defensive system is extremely high risk and leaves us susceptible to being broken through or kicked in behind. Once you get behind/around the rush, it's going to lead to a big break. Leinster physically dominated Ulster for long periods but it doesn't matter when they know exactly how to create a high percentage scoring opportunity with the little ball/territory they had.

Aside from the actual on field showing, I think the coaching team really need to take a look at selections and figure out what they want to do. There's a balance of development/rest and consistency in selection to be reached but right now it's completely skewed towards changing things repeatedly. We've played 11 games and had 8 different halfback pairings (along with 4 different inside centres and 4 different No. 8s).

You cannot establish any consistency within a team both in terms of attacking structure or defensive cohesion if you cannot establish any consistency in selection. Whilst we've always had some changing across the team, Luke McGrath and Ross Byrne both started 8 of the first 11 last season and started together on 5 of those occasions. This season, we've had Prendergast and JGP start twice together, HB and Foley start twice together and HB and McGrath start twice together.

If we want to have any idea as to whether the team can actually implement a new system, the coaching team have to give them the opportunity to do so. We've had a number of injuries but there have been plenty of elective decisions to change the line up too in key positions.

With that said, basic errors are also happening which really shouldn't regardless of those on the field and the performances of some Irish players has gone beyond the concerning levels to outright problematic. I wonder if the only thing that will solve their problems will be getting back in a green jersey to deal with some demons. A minor issue is that they don't deserve to be in green right now.

02-01-2024 10:08AM

Just on the Leinster attack, Nienaber joining seems to have coincided with Leinster playing in the lashing rain every week. It quite clearly is a factor. Ulster weren't exactly putting flowing backs moves together either. I'd also mention every outside back yesterday wasn't first choice (or for Henshaw, even if he is, we have at least one current better 12 in the squad imo).

Clo-Clo · 02-01-2024 10:52AM

I am struggling to see the doom and gloom around Leinster.

The main coach who has been with the team for years left. This was a huge hole left in the coaching ticket and was always going to be a big change but then on top of that

The club captain and main voice around the team retires

The two main coachs are not available fo pre-season, the new replacement main coach only comes into the team a few weeks ago

The majority of the senior players are not available for preseason and come back into Leinster with a different teams calls/moves etc in their head

Some of those players struggling with post WC blues and know they won't make another World Cup

The main 10 who plays most games picks up an injury in first game and gone for a number of weeks

Combine all of this and for Leinster to be top of table, doing well in Europe is not to shabby. Have we had the same 9/10 for two games in a row?

Podge_irl · 02-01-2024 11:10AM

MOD: Lest it slipped anyone's notice, this is the Leinster thread and not a match thread. The discussion will obviously be Leinster focused and that is absolutely fine.

Podge_irl · 02-01-2024 11:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560390#Comment_121560390

Have we had the same 9/10 for two games in a row?

Harry Byrne and Cormac Foley started two URC games in a row but that's hardly that helpful. This is both an excuse and something of an indictment of the coaching and selection though.

Clo-Clo · 02-01-2024 11:16AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560481#Comment_121560481

Normally for the URC games you would of had R Byrne and McGrath starting the majority of games with Sexton/JGP dropping in and out to keep up to game speed

I expect the plan was the same for this year with H Byrne taking up the Ross role but the head knock etc has taken him out.

In terms of selection a lot of the team changes are because the players are coming from the World Cup.

munsterfan2 · 02-01-2024 11:31AM

With the Irish outhalf position up for grabs it looks like all the players are going out trying to be "special", both of Byrne's kicks were over ambitious when it wasnt really needed. Unlucky with the bounce on 1st one, but the last penalty dropping short was very poor. He just needed to get to the 22, safe lineout, few phases and a score would have come. He( and a few other potential 10's ) just need to play a bit calmer, do the basics and not go for the glory play.

02-01-2024 11:32AM

Still think Leinster’s weakness is 10. If you were given absolute free reign, that would be the best player to put an elite NIQ. Then have a depth chart of NIQ, Ross Byrne, Prendergast.

The Iron Giant · 02-01-2024 11:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560563#Comment_121560563

I disagree with this. With Johnny no longer in the picture, they have to stick or twist with Ross and he's either our starting 10 or he's moved on (both for his sake and those behind him). He needs minutes in the big games to fine tune his game. I think he is a fine player who can get better but he will never iron out his perceived weaknesses without more exposure.

Our issue at the moment is that our reserve 10s are Prendergast (who needs time to develop), Harry (who is far too inconsistent and not a clutch performer) and Frawley (who now seems to be a full-back) so with Ross out, we're short. I think when Ross is back and as Prendergast gets more game-time, it'll start looking a lot better.

Podge_irl · 02-01-2024 12:01PM

Apart from anything else, I think Leinster's weakness is clearly at 9. I'm not that bothered about the 10 position, but regardless, an NIQ is not coming in ahead of the Irish sub outhalf.

02-01-2024 12:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560632#Comment_121560632

I agree with pretty much everything you say minus the conclusion. To me that means it would be the perfect place to add an elite player as it puts everyone in the exact ideal situation. Ross Byrne would be the best back up in the world rugby prob instead of a good starter. Prendergast would be an in an ideal spot as well.

02-01-2024 12:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560708#Comment_121560708

I don’t know if i’d want to put someone in above JGP, and if possible i always want an NIQ to be at the top of a depth chart or at least elite.

Podge_irl · 02-01-2024 12:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560745#Comment_121560745

Realistically, an NIQ is not being brought in ahead of either Ross Byrne or JGP, it is simply not happening. The depth at 9 is a lot worse though, especially if McGrath is on a downward slide.

KaneToad · 02-01-2024 12:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560558#Comment_121560558

I like your description of the potential Irish 10's all trying to be special. It hits the nail on the head.

Realistically there isn't a huge gulf between any of the 10s in the country. Even the likes of Hanrahan, Burns and Catty are closer to the current potential green 10s than previous 10s were to Sexton.

Spectacular cross field kicks and out the back passes, while welcome, are not what we need from a national 10. We need someone who is consistent, makes the right decisions and runs the game. We won't see the likes of Sexton again for a while so we should stop expecting fireworks from a 10.

02-01-2024 12:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121560761#Comment_121560761

It is true that 9 probably has worse depth.

I still have to see what Farrell does post world cup. A part of me thinks that Ross Byrne was a bit of a desperation move after everyone else basically failed for a wide variety of reasons. This isn’t me hating on Byrne. I’ve always thought he was underrated. But, i don’t know if he is a ‘farrell guy’ whereas JGP is.

However, i can see even if that is true the irfu prob still doesn’t want to block people on that chart.

The however to that however, is that i think harry byrne and frawley are off contract this year (they are prob negotiating now?) so maybe the chart gets freed up some.

Finochet · 02-01-2024 01:01PM

I can understand why so many are jittery here. I admit wondering what Joe was at when he started " playing the kids" from the very beginning. It took several games for me to cop on that he knew exactly what he was doing. Then Matt O' Connor. Same feeling - why is he trying to turn a super team into a mid table premiership bore. Sadly I was spot on. So what has Jaques inherited? The best attacking team in northern hemisphere perhaps? A super defensive outfit?

Ok first thing let's fix the " broken" defense.....

I haven't seen a poor a set up defensively since the amateur days. Billy Burns looked world class ( I wonder why) and exploited 3 of the at least 7 massive opportunities out wide. For his try Timoney was doing calisthenics ,star jumps, making sandwiches right out on the touchline in front of the new stand for several minutes before he was spotted by Billy B and not spotted at all by Leinster ( admittedly very inexperienced) back three.

I really hope I'm wrong but I'm getting that Mat O'C feeling

Ben Bailey · 02-01-2024 01:09PM

"For his try Timoney was doing calisthenics ,star jumps, making sandwiches right out on the touchline in front of the new stand for several minutes before he was spotted by Billy B ..."

Sometimes placing a very obvious player doing obvious things in that position is calculated to draw the defense's attention and stretches the backfield for the attacking side.

Dubinusa · 02-01-2024 03:15PM

In years past when the international lads were out, the team motored through the opposition and won most games easily. This year with the new systems, they all look lost. Ringer was in the team of the world cup and was miles ahead of any other 13. Now he's playing like a wide eyed rookie. The excuse is now the system! Reality is the team can't string 4 passes together, they look poor attacking and this shows as there's no options but to bust up with the forwards.

At the level of the players and the experience they have, it's very poor. Performance wise there's some who have been relatively poor; Ringer, Park and Furlong being the obvious ones.

For HB, he's still a viable option. He's prone to mistakes but who isn't? When he's playing we look a better fluid attacking side, imo. He attacks the line and plays on the line. He's getting flak for poor errors and deservedly so but, Park has had some very poor errors too. His garryowens have been mixed and some of them are easy takes for the opposition. Henshaw has been used as a truck with little invention. Ngati has been better than him.

On the other side of this, Ryan and McCarthy are absolutely sailing and dominant, imo. Clearly the best 2nd row by a long way. Boyle and Clarkson are going well and Baird is probably the best forward in Ireland right now. So there's that!

Time will tell if the systems settle. They need to get it together soon. 7 week break in the league. That's plenty of time to iron out the kinks and get a semblance of balance. Hopefully Osborne and Foley are back soon and Milne gets a run. Milne carrying the ball and punching holes will help the team.

The Iron Giant · 02-01-2024 04:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121561635#Comment_121561635

If we really want to be winning the URC and Champions Cup, we need a back-up out-half that is not prone to mistakes. Fair enough last night was a URC game that we'll get over but what if that was a knock-out game in the Champions Cup?

He doesn't have anything near the credit in the bank where that kind of error can be just part of his game because its not the first time he's had issues with his kicking at key moments. He either needs to iron them out now or Prendergast needs to be given the jersey. I want him to succeed but he's been sold for the last four years on what he's allegedly capable of doing rather than what he has done on the pitch and outside of the odd glimpse of promise, he's been distinctly average on balance. He's so far behind Ross and he needs to close that gap.

Billy_the_Kid · 02-01-2024 04:49PM

Get me Jimmy Gopperth on the phone..

Leinster Team Talk Thread (Love you Furlong time)

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