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Prime Time Gender Issues (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 868 ✭✭✭Mr Disco


    Do you know what a Nazi is/was? Also are you aware of Goodwin’s law?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Do you agree with Helen Joyce that trans people should be eliminated?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 868 ✭✭✭Mr Disco


    Answering a question with a question is very poor manners. Please don’t engage with me if you don’t display proper manners. Thanks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    I'll take direction from moderators but thanks 👍

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,094 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    So if I said I wanted to reduce rates of disability in Ireland, you'd think that meant I wanted to kill disabled people? Like the Nazis?

    TBF that's pretty much the argument of anti choicers against allowing couple to terminate pregnancies of disabled fetuses - is that what you believe? That they want to murder the disabled?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,345 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You saw the photo of her trampling on the pride flag? And her Jewish theories?

    Do you ever wonder why you find yourself quoting Nazis? There's a reason why these people are attacking trans people first.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,094 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    It's more complex than that though: the majority of children with gender dysphoria at the beginning puberty have got over it by the end of puberty. In fact it's likely that a degree of gender dysphoria is commonplace during puberty, and is exacerbated by factors like autism, or being the victim of sexual abuse, or just living in a highly sexualised environment (which for many girls creates a sort of semi-constant low level sexual abuse by objectification).

    The exception, those who don't get over it naturally, is when children are treated with puberty blockers. In that case the rates are reversed, and the vast majority don't get over their dysphoria, and progress to cross sex hormones and in many cases to surgery. Since it's experimental, and even those who set up the puberty-blocker treatment procedure admit that they can't really tell in advance who will continue to experience dysphoria and who won't, it's probable that the treatment itself increases the rates of patients wanting surgery later on.

    It's not a neutral "time-stopper" as was promised. Which is why the numbers of children being offered surgery (or not) is not the only problem, since non surgical treatments during childhood increase the chances of going for surgery later.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,141 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Did kids have gender identity crises before social media and mass communication? I often wonder about this.



  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Kylan Nice Salami


    Being sexually attracted to your own sex and being trans are VERY different things and shouldn’t really be bandied about in the same argument. One relates to sexual attraction which is a powerful innate highly pleasurable physically response which in healthy relationships results in mutual attraction and a happy healthy experience; being fundamentally trans is an identity crisis to those who experience it and can be very unpleasant unless it can be addressed to the satisfaction of the individual.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Barnes is a journalist who reported on the facts of what happened by talking to all the people involved, including people who were happy they transitioned as a youth. Calling someone who you might not like a TERF is closing your eyes to valid questioning. Is the Cass Review written by a TERF and so can just be ignored? All the studies on puberty blockers have no control groups. From a medical point of view it is not just inacceptable but dangerous to justify the prescription of these drugs based on these studies but that's what's happened.

    The reason why people point out GIDS's closure is that so many people seem to ignore it. The point of the show on Thursday was to point out that the prevailing method of treatment for youth in gender distress is not fit for purpose and that a new method needs to be implemented. Anywhere that has done a review of the WPATH's guidelines for youth in gender distress has come to the same conclusion.



  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Kylan Nice Salami


    Are you sure you put up the intended video here?

    🧐 It doesn’t have anything incriminating in what I can see or hear, although it’s obviously very technically flawed.



  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Kylan Nice Salami


    When people resort to name -calling, their argument and credibility is greatly diminished. It’s an awful pity to allow one’s side of the argument to evolve from a mature discussion to mud-slinging. In any de are the aim should be to remain convincing; if you want to show proof maybe better to avoid linking up tweets with terms like “f*cking dick” and other such displays of throwing toys out of the pram. Better to defend with the mind rather than emotion.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,345 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Except that Tavistock was replaced by other services, doing pretty much the same thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,911 ✭✭✭donaghs


    I think you’ve clearly lost the plot. I don’t see or hear anything about that. How are you interpreting what to this? But I still respect your right to your own views and your “lived experience”. Except when you make stuff about people, basically saying they’re a “Nazi”/non-person, get them.

    possibly it’s different echo chambers you’re involved in where people keep repeating the same mantras and slanders till they eventually seem true.



  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Kylan Nice Salami


    A much smaller number did according to statistics. Another thing, treatments wouldn’t have been formulated back in the day so there was much less to be offered anyone presenting. Some would express their dysphoria in other terms as trans wasn’t as apparently big a phenomenon as it is now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,710 ✭✭✭AllForIt




  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Kylan Nice Salami


    Slander seems to be the Lingua Franca of a certain cohort. Should not be confused with the modus operandi by most decent trans people who just want to get on with their lives in their identity.,



  • Posts: 7,522 ✭✭✭ Emmie Colossal Robbery


    it is very strange to me that an elective surgery, which has significant risks and the purpose thereof is to transform someone’s body beyond repair is even offered to teenagers and young people?

    Why do women who want an abortion need to go and think about it for 72 hours after being filled in on the process by their GP but a child who is asking to be surgically changed from “male” to “female” just needs some counselling and their parents ok.

    Clearly not enough being done here. These are life altering surgeries not just a badly thought out tattoo or piercing.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    It may look that way but it isn't and as the full Cass Review hasn't been released yet I'm not sure how you can say this.

    What Cass wants is that gender distress to be treated in a multi disciplinary way and that puberty blockers to be given only in clinical research. Previously once you said you had gender distress you were sent to a gender clinic which dealt with only the gender side of things. So eating disorders, autism, and other issues were almost ignored and only the gender distress was dealt with. She called this diagnostic overshadowing. If a person has complex needs then looking at all the issues is the way forward.

    Puberty blockers have been moved to a clinical only setting as they've never gone through clinical trials for this application. The studies that first started using them are nowhere near strong enough to justify their current use. They'd no control group, were highly selective in their patients, and the method they used to evaluate their success is very weak. Any study on the effect of a drug without a control group means it's nearly impossible to evaluate the effect of the drug, and this goes for any drug. A person who has an eating disorder, autism or any other issue wouldn't have been selected for these studies. The method used to evaluate their success involved using questionaries. The problem here though is that doing nothing, as in literally nothing, but giving the patients questionaries to fill in and you would have seen a reduction in gender distress.

    GID's said they didn't work to the WAPTH affirming care model but they pretty much did. That's why people point out the clinics closure. Yes it did have long waiting lists and other problems but the affirming care model was also on the list for why it was closed. The show the other night was why we shouldn't use the affirming care model.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,207 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Is it? It's something Prime Time sort of implied by talking to people who looked young (but were still in their 20s from what I can tell) but never actually said this was the case. I ask because honestly I'd be very very surprised if surgical treatment was offered to minors. (And not something I'd be in favour of either despite being on the "pro-trans" side of the fence). As far as I'm aware, the treatment on offer if needed is puberty blockers. And they're generally offered because the alternative is a suicidal minor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    I can't actually fine the "eliminate" quote you speak of!

    The closest I can get to is ...

    PINK NEWS

    “And in the meantime, while we’re trying to get through to the decision-makers, we have to try to limit the harm and that means reducing or keeping down the number of people who transition,”

    Joyce said.


    Still can't find any vocal or written quote that she wants Trans people eliminated or exterminated for that matter......



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,345 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Can you point to any definition of affirmative care approach that refers to no questioning please? The definitions that I'm seeing are quite different from your claim.

    https://cps.ca/en/documents/position/an-affirming-approach-to-caring-for-transgender-and-gender-diverse-youth

    Concerns about slander from the person making up false allegations. Hilarious.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Thankfully your last line there has been shown to be not true. It is a disgrace that you, or anyone, says this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,345 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Where have you seen surgery being offered to teens and young people?

    Is there any chance of grounding this discussion with even the slightest grasp on reality.



  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Kylan Nice Salami


    I think, but can’t be sure yet, that surgery isn’t actually being carried out on children here, but it is in the HSE remit that it could do. I stand to be corrected as to full facts. There is discord between the gender services doctors and HSE advocacy.



  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Kylan Nice Salami


    The guidelines are already there to progress surgery to under 18s. Not all surgeries (in a broader sense) sanctioned & paid for by HSE are performed in Ireland, and people can receive surgeries overseas when approved by HSE.



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  • Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Kylan Nice Salami


    This HSE document dates from 2021, and therefore wouldn’t be current, but it reflects on some stats of referrals up to that point. The numbers are evidently very low here. We all know that trying to get medical care for many things in Ireland is a fight, so may likely not reflect t all who would benefit.



This discussion has been closed.
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