Euthanasia, your views

Count Dracula · 18-09-2023 11:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121128072#Comment_121128072

Not convinced that south Dublin stooges have ever had time to concoct rumours. They are too distracted, in sheer awe, at how northsiders have managed, especially given their scant resources and poor intellect?

It certainly has baffled me for centuries.

The boardwalk is great craic for a few hours, some of those strung out junckies are more amiable than Irish Times readers would have you believe. Bring some cans for leverage and expect your ciggies to be annihilated.

I won an ad hoc french kissing competition on Ormand Quay in mid June. If nothing else boardwalkers have sublime enthusiasm for the pleasures in life.

I would rather snog a junckie than kill myself tbh?

Hotblack Desiato · 19-09-2023 06:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127977#Comment_121127977

Both things are true. It's not about money, the health system is spending the money. It's also true that in some cases they shouldn't and the patient doesn't even want them to. You can decline treatment, but you cannot request that your life be shortened or ended.

The racehorse industry has an awful lot to answer for but is completely irrelevant to this thread.

Donald Trump · 19-09-2023 06:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121131117#Comment_121131117

Answer the question about your cat rather than keeping avoiding it

Would you pay 20k on its operation that may or may not be successful with a probability of 20%?

Now, would you want the State to foot a 20k bill to perform an operation that would have a 20% chance of curing say your partner or a parent or even yourself? Or would you recommend that they just put the subject to sleep and out of their misery for the cost of a tenner?

Leg End Reject · 19-09-2023 07:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121127977#Comment_121127977

Does anyone pay the actual cost of medical treatment for themselves or their relatives?

"Granny is dying, we need to stump up €250,000 k per year until she finally pops her clogs."

It doesn't happen. Treatment is paid for via taxation in the public system or by health insurance companies. There might be some nursing home fees, or the ironically named Fair Deal Scheme.

Vet fees aren't the reason many chose to euthanise their pet, it's because the pet is sick, miserable and has no hope of having any quality of life. You'll find many will have paid thousands in vet fees before that point, or their pet insurance will.

As for shooting racehorses - they are not pets, they're business and a leg fracture is often more complicated in horses and may lead to permanent deformity. Livestock owners are less likely to pay vet bills out of love and a genuine bond with the animal.

Donald Trump · 19-09-2023 07:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121131321#Comment_121131321

If you stumped up the money for chemo for your pet, they will get it. There is no law preventing you from doing it. Some countries will even have insurance policies to cover such eventualities.

You don't treat your pet though because you don't want to pay it. The State rightly won't pay for it. Given that you won't pay for the treatment, then you put the poor beast out of their misery. But that comes after your decision not to pay for treatment.

Leg End Reject · 19-09-2023 07:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121131167#Comment_121131167

I would pay €20k for a pet or a loved.

If a €20k operation has a 20% chance of curing a human I'd argue it's not a progressive disease like Parkinsons or cancer.

Leg End Reject · 19-09-2023 07:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121131331#Comment_121131331

I would pay though, and have done.

19-09-2023 07:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121131331#Comment_121131331

I think you are projecting your own personal views on the matter of vet bills and trying to use it to prove a point.

Thing is you can’t prove a point by using a contentious example.

Donald Trump · 19-09-2023 10:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121131360#Comment_121131360

The original point made by others was that animals are routinely put down to put them out of their misery and the argument was made that that should be allowed for people.

I am pointing out that the first choice is not between the animal suffering and being put down - the choice is between whether you pay for the treatment or not. The logical conclusion is not to pay for the treatment. Given that, then you put the animal down as a result.

The analogy - applied to people - would be to not expend treatment on some people and instead put them out of their misery. Other people have mentioned on thread about a Canadian wheelchair user being offered Euthanasia when they went looking for a ramp.

Tork · 20-09-2023 12:38PM

So we should leave things as they are, should we? If you or somebody you love develops an incurable condition that's causing them considerable distress, it's ok to leave them to suffer until they finally expire? That's what this should be about. Not wheelchair ramps or how much it costs to patch up Rover.

20-09-2023 01:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121133587#Comment_121133587

yes because we are not to decide when it’s time for someone to go.

Tork · 20-09-2023 01:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121133802#Comment_121133802

Have you ever had to stand by helplessly and watch a family member die slowly and in pain? I have and it will never leave me.

highdef · 20-09-2023 02:01PM

Allow your loving pet of a dozen or more years to die naturally (and quite possibly very painfully) and you'd be accused of being a horrible person for not euthanising it even though the animal has no say in the matter. Do the same for a loving human who actually requests it and you're put in prison for murder.

Enough said.

Leg End Reject · 20-09-2023 02:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121133802#Comment_121133802

Can people not decide for themselves?

Mrs OBumble · 20-09-2023 02:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121133935#Comment_121133935

That's when you advocate for them to receive appropriate care.

Being put down is NOT care.

Tork · 20-09-2023 02:22PM

Keeping people alive when they're in agony and will never get better is not care either. Especially if they want to go.

Palliative care is not the magic solution to every terminal ailment. This might come as a shock to some of you. "Care" is such a lovely blanket term, isn't it? It solves everything and ensures everybody has a nice Hollywood death, no matter what's wrong with them.

highdef · 20-09-2023 02:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134032#Comment_121134032

Can I assume this opinion applies to all sentient loved ones, be it my mother or my dog of 10 years who is very much family to me?

20-09-2023 10:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121133979#Comment_121133979

can someone decide for themselves whether I help them die? Well, no, because it requires you to do it so it is your decision also.

As I said it is not for me to decide whether someone lives or dies. If they want to die they can commit suicide and that would then not involve someone else to decide to help or take part at all

20-09-2023 11:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134115#Comment_121134115

I suspect that palliative care can be variable. As I’ve posted I’ve witnessed it up very close in MND and I can honestly say that in that particular case it was just like a very gentle slow euthanasia, there was no distress, last gesture a thumbs up which I saw for my self as I was beside the bed, then unconsciousness for about 12-18 hours. A few relatives & friends came to bid goodbye as she was asleep there on the passive ventilator (which she was already well used to during her illness). It went last midnight and one relative asked the nurse on duty could he switch off the ventilator, which he did. No distress, she breathed very gently for 3 minutes then stopped. That was it.

I know this regime of high dose pleasant opiate coupled with high dose anxiolytic is the gold standard for management of final phase (usually lasting no more than a couple of days) in Motor Neurone Disease, and there have been a small number of such people who have requested to have home ventilation, but have gone through this phase as a transition, who have asserted that they were in no distress during the process, so it is a very gentle way to die when managed well like that.

However, I’m inclined to think that there are maybe cases of, particularly cancer deaths, that are not palliated to the same extent. They could be facilitated to become fully sedated as to not to feel distress and to pass away gently under this sedation, although to onlookers the breathing noises might sound distressing though not experienced as such by the dying patient themselves. I think that sometimes there’s a reluctance to sedate to a fuller extent in non MND cases because often family are perceived as wanting to try and get as much of a long goodbye as possible, and indeed this is probably quite often the reality, also patients themselves may show this apparent natural “revival” some days or hours before sinking into death.

Sometimes this is a useful period of goodbye, other times the person progresses to become agitated as blood gases alter in the brain. Sometimes a sudden haemorrhage is the actual terminal event, which is not nice to witness, although the patient can be quickly eased of distress by sedation. Cancer deaths have very different patterns which I suppose makes it more difficult to define a specific protocol for a good death.

Tork · 20-09-2023 11:22PM

@[Deleted User] What if the person wants to commit suicide and can't? It happens you know.

Have you ever heard of Tony Nicklinson? I want your thoughts on this and what you would've said to him to cheer him up. He was an English man who suffered a catastrophic stroke in 2005 and lost all control of his body. Severely disabled and unable to help himself in any way, he wanted to die. He tried to have the law changed so he could die but was refused. I want you to watch the start of this video and listen to Tony's heartbroken cries after he got the bad news about his case being turned down and tell me you think it's Ok that he should continue to live in misery. Would you be able to look him in the eye and tell him that you wanted him to go on living?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/aug/16/locked-in-syndrome-right-die

After this, he refused to take any more food or medicine and effectively committed suicide. He died shortly afterwards, which solved everybody's problem. That's what you want people to do, isn't it? Just off themselves and save everybody a headache.

Tork · 20-09-2023 11:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136455#Comment_121136455

I appreciate what you are saying but I can confirm that when my relative died, it was slow it was not peaceful and they WERE in pain. It wasn't imaginary gurgling or anything like that. It was actual pain for weeks on end, which the medication didn't always touch. I don't want to go into specifics here because I know other family members use boards a lot and I don't want them to identify me.

What you've described for MND is effectively Euthanasia anyway, isn't it? The icky truth for some of the people here is that some lucky dying folk are helped on their way with medication anyway but nobody ever uses the E word. The most well-known version of this is probably the morphine pump. When you hear somebody has gone onto the morphine pump, you can start ironing your funeral suit.

Leg End Reject · 20-09-2023 11:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136376#Comment_121136376

You're a chef, you won't be asked to facilitate euthanasia unless some weirdo asks to die from food poisoning.

Mrs OBumble · 21-09-2023 12:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134165#Comment_121134165

I have no difficulty differentiating between a human and a dog.

21-09-2023 12:31AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136490#Comment_121136490

Yeah, I’m kind of dating that about MND, it is the protocol as the end-stage dying process generally follows a fairly identical pattern, and broadly speaking pain is not in itself a feature of the disease although being stuck immobile can lead to pain as it would with anyone. That level of pain is easily palliated.

Some cancer invades nerves or fills very confined sensitive spaces like the head, which causes the very hard-to-palliate pain you sometimes hear about or witness. Fentanyl combined with other agents, sometimes including spinal anaesthesia and good sedation can provide good palliation at the expense of a perhaps somewhat quicker death, and should be afforded by default unless the patient themselves somehow wants to “hang on” which might very occasionally be the case.

I remember a (very brave) lady who got pancreatic cancer, only diagnosed 2 months before her death, and who had looked and seemed very healthy & active immediately before that, and who was naturally in pain, was offered spinal anaesthesia in hospital.

She had been a person who always loved to be in her feet, a pillar of the community, a matriarch to her family. Her lack of pancreatic enzymes etc led to the very typical hard-to-control watery diarrhoea associated with the disease, and the idea of not being able to get herself to the toilet as needed on her own feet was something she was very reluctant to give into, she hated the idea of carers having to nonstop change her continence wear and with visitors about, whom she lived to see as she was so gregarious. She eventually conceded to the spinal block and wasn’t in any pain any more, but hated being confined to bed and entertaining her visitors with the personal hygiene issue. She had two children launching careers at the time, so was very keen to stretch out her days to say her goodbyes and impart some final wisdom and memories. She died in a natural coma after liver failure, but was very stoic and inspirational to the end and St James’ Hospital did manage her palliation very well.

Tork · 21-09-2023 12:43AM

Good for her. Sadly, not everybody dies peacefully. Anyway I'm going to bow out of this thread now because it's bringing back a lot of trauma and upsetting me all over again.

21-09-2023 01:14AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136517#Comment_121136517

Your quip is funny, but all the same no one can really be certain a friend of family member wouldn’t ask it of them.

Id like to think that my friends or family would rather not request something like that of me or anyone else involved honestly.

If it is something that wouldn’t bother you personally & it bothers you that it’s illegal that’s fair enough.

I wouldn’t do it myself I don’t think but that said it’s hard to say as I’ve never actually been in a situation where it’s something I’ve had to think about.

I have had a family member die from cancer and it was not pleasant to watch them at the end however I don’t think I’d have preferred they be euthanised.

Just not something I can see the positives in.

Hotblack Desiato · 21-09-2023 01:46AM

They wouldn't be asking anything of a friend or family member, they'd be asking it of a doctor. That's the whole point.

bb12 · 21-09-2023 03:13AM

Doctors ‘Euthanized’ Woman by Suffocating Her with a Pillow, Family ‘Heard Screaming’

https://slaynews.com/news/doctors-euthanized-woman-by-suffocating-her-with-a-pillow-family-heard-screaming/?utm_source=mailpoet&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily-newsletter

highdef · 21-09-2023 05:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136559#Comment_121136559

I have no doubt you would however would you allow your pet dog die a painful death or would you euthanise it? This could be a pet/member of your family for over a dozen years, there for you at the darkest times of your life, always there with you no matter what, loyal to you unconditionally. I didn't question anyone's ability to differentiate between different species of mammal.

magicbastarder · 21-09-2023 07:34AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136681#Comment_121136681

So? Someone fucked up a medical procedure. A procedure being performed incorrectly is not a reason to not countenance that procedure. Are we going to ban paediatric spinal operations in the state now, for example?

Euthanasia, your views

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