Euthanasia, your views

It’s being aired on Prime Time at the moment and deserves an airing here, whatever reasonable opinions may be held. What are your views?

Str8outtaWuhan

A favourite tool of commies and fascists alike. If you are well enough to kill yourself do it by your own hand if your not well enough then tough.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058313439/euthanasia-your-views

I have witnessed first hand end of life of death of next of kin from Motor Neurone Disease after a very fast course of disease of less than a year. The progression was shocking, but the death was incredibly peaceful. As next of kin I promised my cousin she would have a very peaceful death, she trusted me and she duly had experienced the best death imaginable. Her last words were “I’m fine, just bring me in my winter clothes@.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121102979#Comment_121102979

In MND Hospices will routinely administer heavy sedatives.

SuperBowserWorld

Haven't been watching the programme but ...

I think if I was in extreme pain and misery and no way out I'd wish for the Euthanasia option.

What is the point of suffering terribly until your death, if their is another more humane option ? And causing others suffering watching you situation. Not to mention financial costs and everything else involved with being a full time carer ?

Mrs OBumble

Disabled people are already complaining about how often they're asked in they want a DRR order in hospital: I'm sure they'll be delighted with people regularly asking if they want euthanasia.

And it'll deal with the aging population problem too.

On the other hand for conditions that are particularly manageable, and many advanced illnesses are, palliative care can be excellent. It’s just I’ve seen palliative care in practice in two cases of MND, which has a specific management routine.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121102988#Comment_121102988

It is euthanasia in all but name really

Heighway61

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103000#Comment_121103000

What's the "aging population problem"?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103000#Comment_121103000

I have a genuine interest in this area, I have Multiple Sclerosis, chronic cardiomyopathy, chronic depression and and end ileostomy to contend with. I am definitely itely in Disabled category and have the parking permit. I really feel seriously depressed at times, other times I feel life needs to be lived.

the_pen_turner

im all for it in the right circumstance.

there should be some kind of scale of suffering and dignity that if you go below a certain level you can take this option. say you have no use of your self and are stuck in bed all day and need someone to wash you and wipe you arse etc then your quality of life and dignity is gone

cj maxx

I remember Marie Fleming ( I think) going to court to end her life because of MS . I was getting diagnosed at the time . I'm still in two minds about legalising euthanasia .

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121102979#Comment_121102979

That’s a real issue and a moral dilemma. Say I convey when my MS gets to the stage where I can’t get out of bed unassisted, I might still have the capacity to hold & swallow the lethal drugs. Then say I’ve left if a bit delayed or things have caught up and I cannot hold or swallow the substance. I have already experienced with moderate MS that ability to hold or swallow a substance can just disappear overnight, it’s scary stuff.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103024#Comment_121103024

The “unwanted” or “bedblockers” I presume, which I’m in training for hugely due to an inadequate GP (service)

Leg End Reject

I would like the option, the idea of a long illness with an inevitable prognosis that will render me dependent by degrees is horrifying.

I don't want to linger and die in a hospice.

orourkeda1

If I were in tremendous pain with a terminal diagnosis, the horrible truth is that I would probably want to avoid unnecessary suffering.

MrMusician18

I'm personally against it because it will be abused. No amount of safeguards will be able to prevent that. People will be coerced and bullied into it, guaranteed.

I also feel it will also lead to a cheapening of the lives of the elderly and infirm and eventually be offered as the primary "care" option for the terminally ill.

And that's before we get to it being available for the mentally ill.

Proper palliative care where people are made comfortable and treated with dignity is the answer.

IstvaanV

My best friend died of a rare and viciously destructive bone cancer. He told me while he was still lucid that he wanted to end his own life before it got too bad or before he was too sick to be able to do it. It terrified me at the time to hear him voice such thoughts, such wants, such needs.

His natural death was one of suffering, bloody, full of pain and horror. Loss of limbs, loss of portions of his skull, unable to eat solid food. Ultimately a medically induced coma while he was eaten away by the rampantly aggressive cancer ravaging his body.

We, his friends and family, we all got to watch this play out, to have this seared into our minds - to bear witness to a truly bad death. Over a decade and I can still see that hospital room sometimes when I blink. Smell the antiseptic stench of that ward in dreams.

If he could have spared himself that horror he would have done so. With hideous hindsight, if I could have spared him that horror I would do it in a heart beat. It is inhumane to not have that option in the face of such circumstance.

A moral dilemma. Ok fair enough...who's morals? Healthy people who can sprout some opinion about a situation they have never witnessed, cannot understand or have not experienced directly perhaps.

Yesterday I got results from a CT scan to investigate long term abdominal pains. Two tumors. Might be benign, might be cancerous. Nobody gets to tell me how I go out if it is cancerous and metastasized. They can shove their own selfish morals into my cancerous corpse.

Nigel Fairservice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103060#Comment_121103060

I was diagnosed with MS about a year or two after the Marie Fleming case. I remember that's all that was going through my mind in the first few days after when the neurologist told me I had it.

I would probably be cautiously in favour of euthanasia with various safeguards. People euthanise animals to save their suffering. We are told it's the humane thing to do and nobody objects. I'm not comparing the life of a person with that of an animal but I never understood why we don't apply the same logic to ourselves. I don't mean to oversimplify the issue with a statement like that either. There's much to consider with such an issue.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103168#Comment_121103168

I also feel it will also lead to a cheapening of the lives of the elderly and infirm and eventually be offered as the primary "care" option for the terminally ill.

I think the opposite. It will allow those who want to avoid pain, loss of independence and a slow decline to death a way to avoid it.

Life is precious, but only when it is enjoyable. Everyone has their limits.

cj maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103208#Comment_121103208

I know . If being diagnosed wasn’t enough I then had a premonition of what life might be like. It was a sobering experience .

Jack Tar

My mother died from dementia. I will never ever forget her heartbroken, terrified tears after she got her diagnosis. Or for that matter, having to watch her suffer as she lost her independence and her mind. She suffered a horrible death and that was with palliative care. By the time she finally died she was a vacant shell of a person who could no longer communicate with anyone. All we could do was sit by her bed and watch her suffer until her body finally gave out. The people who want to stop euthanasia being an option for the terminally ill love to trot out palliative care as an option. That's bullshit. It works for some people but not everyone. Unfortunately mum was not one of the lucky ones. We need safeguards, yes, but euthanasia needs to exist in Ireland. One size does not fill all.

If I get a similar diagnosis in the future I will be taking my own life as early as possible. After seeing what my mother went through, there is no way I want that for me. The clock starts ticking once you get bad news. I wish we had living wills and euthanasia but I fear that day is still a long way away.

eightieschewbaccy

I'm a definite yes, I've got multiple chronic illnesses so at increased risk for multiple cancers. So I'm assuming there's a good chance I'll end up getting one of them. In the event of being terminally ill, I'd prefer to go on my own terms rather than the illness eating away at me.

banie01

I've watched 1 grandfather die of MND, a vital, strong and intelligent man, reduced to paralysed waif, locked into an unresponsive body. Should such a diagnosis ever come my way? I know what I'd do.

The issue of Euthanasia is always a loaded one. I firmly believe in one's right to their bodily autonomy and that right comes with the implicit right to end one's own life. It doesn't extend to having the right to compel others to assist you though.

That then brings one back to the how, what legal options can be facilitated to give one a "neat" death? One that preserves the dignity of the deceased and their loved ones? The rise of DNRs in the routine care of the disabled. The move towards "disposable" extending into the treatment & palliative care regime or options? That should not be allowed. I have serious concerns regarding some of the headline euthanasia cases out of Canada & Belgium on that front.

Above all? I would have concerns were any decision around Euthanasia were made on a cost basis, rather than on a quality of life basis for the patient.

The trope of "Death panels" that's trotted out during treatment decisions by some in the US, should be a genuine concern. Such a decision should not lie in the hands of insurers and the best interest of the patient, rather than cost should be central tenet of any Euthanasia policy adopted.

cj maxx

Reading about the symptoms of mnd , they are very similar to symptoms of MS . Very worrying .

Curse These Metal Hands

I've seen too many family members die slowly, and painfully, from terminal illnesses. It's imperative that it becomes available here.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103193#Comment_121103193

Re

Nobody gets to tell me how I go out if it is cancerous and metastasized. They can shove their own selfish morals into my cancerous corpse.

Euthanasia isn't about people telling you when you go out. You can kill yourself any old time. (I don't personally recommend it, just to be clear.)

It's about making it legal for a doctor to prescribe and administer drugs that will take you out. In short , it's "suicide by doc".

Ideally, a doctor will only do that at your specific request, made when you are of sound mind (so it's too late once someone has dementia diagnosis) and terminally ill. And they will have made sure that you aren't subject to family pressure (from relatives who want to get their hands on your land+money ASAP) or social pressure (from people who believe that YOUR life has not quality, because THEY would not like to live that way - or government officials who want your bed - or house - for someone else).

But good luck with actually applying that. Especially in a death-glorifying culture where people look forward to funerals!

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103168#Comment_121103168

I guess there are some that do not think you are treating people with "dignity" if you do not give them basic ownership and control over their own lives and when they decide to end it or live it.

As long as we are making that choice for them - they would see it as just posturing the concept of dignity for our own comfort rather than for any actual benefit of the people who are the recipients of such benign dictatorship. Like colonials enforcing civilization and culture on indigenous populations at the end of a sword. "Dignity" comes from within and how one chooses to carry themselves or not through their own lives. It is not something that is enforced on you.

That said it is not a subject I know too much about. But I am dimly aware there are countries which do allow Euthanasia and the like. Like "Dignitas" or whatever it is called. I might be spelling that wrong as I have only ever heard it said not seen it written.

So surely it is the case that your "guaranteed" thesis above - of how it would be coerced, bullied, abused and will cheapen the lives of the elderly, infirm, and other concerns in your post - can be quite easily checked? Are the counties with things like "Dignitas" displaying the outcomes and results you feel are literally inevitable? I ask not as a "gotcha" but because I genuinely do not know.

How are the elderly or mentally compromised or terminally ill treated in such countries? If your thesis is as "guaranteed" as you assert it to be - then it must be quite awful for such groups in those countries?

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121102988#Comment_121102988

Mnd patients could do it themselves the minute they get the diagnosis. Their choice to linger.

Fighting Tao

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103498#Comment_121103498

I’m not sure what red tape requires removing for people that are able and want to kill themselves. Surely they would just go ahead and do it. This is for those who are in pain and incapable of stopping their misery.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103477#Comment_121103477

Outside of this being an incredibly cold hearted remark. In that scenario, if they have access to the necessary drugs then they have to get things like doses right and if that goes wrong, they're potentially in a worse scenario than they started with. Euthanasia takes that risk out of the equation.

lumphammer2

It is a very sad world we live in where we debate about euthanasia instead of striving for a cure ... I believe in 2023 we should no longer have diseases such as cancer, ALS/MND/PBP, Alzheimer's/dementia, etc. as terminal .... these should all be now treatable at the very least if not curable ... it is a sad world when both sides can arm factions in Ukraine to the teeth to murder each other .... while diseases kill us all .... diseases that could be CURED if we didn't spend so much time funding WMD and other ways to kill each other .... there would be no need for euthanasia ....

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103574#Comment_121103574

Well firstly, there are currently people who are suffering. Cures don't happen overnight and huge money is put into research on all of them. Secondly, every single thing we cure, a new thing will try to ravage the human body as it ages cause it goes with aging. And the reality is, some people get it way worse. So nope, I can't picture a scenario where every person is comfortable, pain free and able to function to a semi normal degree in their final years of life.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103168#Comment_121103168

Amazing that the slippery slope fallacy still catches so many people.

I'd favour it as an option. Much the same as abortion, I probably would never use the option but I think the option should be available to those who might need it.

Other countries do it and have such strict safeguarding in place that it actually makes it difficult to get.

Ubbquittious

They should build this

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a44492068/euthanasia-roller-coaster/

taxAHcruel

^ Indeed and I guess it is worth adding that the idea that some people might be cajoled or forced into taking an option is not an excuse to remove that option from everyone else.

That is not to say it is not an awful thing when it happens. If someone is forced or cajoled into an option they do not want to take - especially a terminal one - then that is truly awful.

It just is not an argument against having that option there. I believe access to the choice of abortion is a good thing for example. Every woman should have that option.

Are there women and girls who are cajoled into or even forced into taking that option? I have no doubt there must be. And that is truly awful if and when it is happening. But that is not even a little bit an argument against having that option in society.

Tork

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103477#Comment_121103477

What a heartless comment. What about people with MND (and other terrible conditions) who would like to spend *some* of their final months with their loved ones? Using your cruel logic, the imperative is on them to top themselves while they still have the chance. You're denying them extra time that they could have.

Also, what about people who suffer a sudden catastrophic event? A stroke or a bad car accident for example.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103716#Comment_121103716

Agree completely. You may still have decent health when you get a diagnosis and want to live on while that applies. It's when your condition becomes unbearable that many will want to have the choice.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121102979#Comment_121102979

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103477#Comment_121103477

Are you purposefully trying to sound like an absolute monster or are you just that naïve?

Genghis

I would be against legalising euthanasia on the 'thin end of a wedge' basis.

Yes, its a undoubtedly a humane alternative for people facing painful deaths, and yes, I can see circumstances where I would wish for it for myself - BUT once euthanasia is legitimised in any guise I feel it will gradually widen in scope, perhaps as far as becoming a universal right.

I also worry about it becoming a social pressure ("its not just about you: don't burden your family or friends either") or being use to terminate newborns with prognoses based on quality of life probability at birth, etc.

Once we classify euthanasia as 'humane', 'treatment', 'healthcare' or something that is 'administered', it will inevitably become an everyday option.

I also feel we have made huge advances in palliative care, and should continue to develop that as a humane response and universal right; I say this having been sad witness to 3 cases over a 6 month period last year.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103952#Comment_121103952

Do we always have to go with the slippery slope argument? Do we not live in a society where safeguards can be put in place as to prevent the eventual slide towards there being suicide booths on every corner?

The legalisation of abortion in Ireland is a great example - I haven't as of yet seen any kind of slippery slope effect into abortion being an 'everyday option'. It's just something people should have access too, similarly IMO in certain circumstances with euthanasia.

BrianD3

If it is introduced in Ireland will there be a 4 year waiting list for the...procedure.

I think it is a good in theory and could work in a country with a functioning health and social care system and a general culture of diligence and honesty.

Here in Ireland we have a long history of and ongoing problems with institutional abuse, apathy, greed, corruption, neglect and incompetence. Also animal abuse and cruelty. We can't seem to deal with HSE employees raping residents in nursing homes - so how are we going to deal with the "nuclear weapon" of healthcare that is euthanasia.

Elderly people with dementia are routinely denied interventions (e.g. cataract removal) that could help them and their quality of of life. it's easier to just write them off, attribute everything to incurable conditions, fob them off onto someone else or put them on a waiting list that is so long that they'll be dead before anything is done. Is this a culture that we want to introduce the option of euthanasia into?

magicbastarder

we call it humane when we bring a pet to the vet to bring unnecessary pain to an end, which is kinda ironic when so many of us won't use the word humane about doing the same for humans.

it could be possible that a defined minimum set of criteria must be met - some set in law, some additional ones defined by the person themselves - before the option is granted.

e.g. (and i am not saying i know how dementia works, this is just spitballing) a dementia patient cannot recognise any faces anymore AND blood tests show stress hormones consistently above a certain level AND (insert other medical indicators) AND they must have agreed to the above while they were still in a position to be able to make the decision that this is what they would want.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103716#Comment_121103716

Of course someone with a disease could euthanise themselves as soon as they're diagnosed. But surely it would be better if they could spend their time with their family or whatever they want to do while they're healthy. Knowing that when they they get sick, they can have the dignity to organise their death at the time of their choosing. Surrounded by family and friends, if that's what they want.

If it was a pet, we'd say it's the humain thing to do. But we don't extend that kindness to our fellow human.

Cookie_Monster

Should be mandatory once you turn 90

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103952#Comment_121103952

I asked a user above but the user has not come back yet. So perhaps you can help me with the same question.

There appears to be places that already have access to Euthanasia. Like the company called "Dignitas" in Switzerland.

So the question that occurs to me - and I genuinely do not know the answer - did the slippery slope situation you describe above occur there? If your thesis is correct and your conclusion is "inevitable" (the user I asked earlier used the word "guaranteed" so you are talking with the same certainty as they are) did it actually happen there as you describe?

IF not - is it as inevitable and guaranteed as you guys are suggesting? Or is it similar to the hyperbolic "Abortion will just become a form of contraception" argument we heard during the last referendum?

As for your last paragraph I would wholly agree. But I would point out that advancing and implementing palliative care is not mutually exclusive with offering Euthanasia. I can not see a single reason why we can not pursue both in our society and offer the best of both that we possibly can. And then offer the patient the true "dignity" - because that word is getting used a bit - of choosing one of those options for themselves. Because personal choice and autonomy is dignity as far as I can see.

Another user earlier talked about how we should be pursuing cures and treatments. Also agree with that! But again - it's not even a little bit mutually exclusive. Lets by all means pursue the best treatment and care options we can. But let us not pretend that the existence of such options is an argument against any other options.

ancapailldorcha

As miserable as I find the idea of euthanasia, it should absolutely be legal. Nobody should be entitled to control whether or not someone else can voluntarily end their own life.

Sadly, I see this going the way of the 8th amendment debate where, while there were indeed legitimate concerns, they were drowned in an ocean of snarky comments by people trying to be edgy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121103193#Comment_121103193

Horrible stuff, you do as you need to. 🥲

Everybody here has made valid, though sometimes opposing, comments. There’s truth in all of them. That’s what makes it such a complicated & controversial issue. What starts out with controls (ie euthanasia under a lot of restrictions) gets dismantled over time in the name of convenience. Convenience takes over, and transposes from the “convenience” of the suffering individual to the convenience of society as a whole.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121104362#Comment_121104362

There's that 'slippery slope' argument again.

Do you have any explanation as to why you think these controls would automatically get dismantled over the time in the name of convenience?

Legislation is not subject to some form of entropy where everything just dismantles over time. In many cases it actually reverses. Who's to say euthanasia wouldn't go back to being illegal / more restricted after a period of legalisation?

We're starting to see that exact thing happen in the US with abortion for example where it's getting more restricted now, not less.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121104093#Comment_121104093

I suspect people don't actually remember making the slippery slope argument. Does anyone remember the slippery slope around gay marriage? It went along the lines of "I've no problem with gays marrying BUT... If we allow them to marry, soon they'll be marrying chairs and dogs and children".

Does anyone ever admit to making that argument back then? Of course they don't. Truth is, they opposed gay marriage and didn’t have a great argument against it, so they used a slippery slope argument instead. Same with this. If you don't oppose, euthanasia, just say so and leave the slippery slope arguments to people who don't have a good reason for opposing it.