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A wonderful illustration showing how much public space we’ve handed over to cars

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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    worth mentioning a factor many motorists simply don't know/understand - braking distance (as opposed to stopping distance) is proportional to the square of your speed. braking from 100km/h to 0 takes four times the distance that braking from 50km/h to 0.

    or another way of looking at it - if you brake from 100km/h to 0, you travel three times as far braking from 100km/h to 50km/h, than you do braking from 50km/h to zero.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,169 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Not really a caveat more a sensible qualification of an activity which all can enjoy if they put in the effort.

    Once you comply with all the rules you can do the Wild Atlantic Way, go to the shops or take your granny to a medical appointment.

    That's why people want their cars and are willing to spend so much to have one.

    As for privilege, some say living in a free democracy is a privilege.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you have to earn permission to drive. if you have to earn it - i.e. it is assumed you cannot do X until you've proven you can - it's absurd to call it a right.

    compare it to personal freedom; my personal freedom is assumed until i prove i cannot be trusted with it. driving is the opposite; it is assumed i can't until i prove i can.

    it'd be silly to say 'i have a right to pilot a passenger airliner'. i have the right to make the attempt to learn how to do so and prove i am capable, which is not the same as having the right to actually do it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,288 ✭✭✭creedp


    See what you describe in para 2 is freedom of choice to within reason live your life in a manner that you derive enjoyment from. However, increasingly your overlords, ably assisted by an ever increasing number of vocal interests groups, want to tear down these freedoms to achieve a society of full uniformity, maximum efficiency, with everyone living in densely populated urban hubs busingly buzzing around preferably walking or cycling or if necessary using system approved public transport to deliver the great vision something akin to that of an ant colony.

    Problem is humans as species are diverse, complicated animals with independent minds. So therein lies the difficulty and it will take years, initially using the carrot but in due course the big stick, to achieve this conformity. Resistance is essential but ultimately futile. Of course some see this as the utopian future while others see it as a full blown dystopian world. People can decide which group they most naturally align with😂



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    ap_19113862651907-h_20191.jpg

    ..



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,288 ✭✭✭creedp




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,263 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    A few teweets here - the first shows the contempt that many gardai seem to have for road traffic laws...

    The second is a reply AGS posted to one of their own tweeets...

    It's probably just a moan about the wording but when they say "If you're going to be brazen and unsafe, at least be smart.", are they actually saying that it's ok to be unsafe as long as you're smart about it?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,451 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Again, when I throw out a comment like that, I have a sound basis for it. The Safety in Numbers effect for cyclists is well established, all over the world:

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001457516301555#sec0100

    These are all the usual piddling excuses we hear when any suggestion that having people abusing their cars for short journeys isn't a great idea. It IS actually possible to move kids around without a car.

    Untitled Image Untitled Image Untitled Image

    Dutch teenagers are amongst the happiest and healthiest teenagers in the world. It's not a coincidence that two thirds of them cycle themselves to school, instead of being imprisoned in back of mummy's SUV.

    We need to stop giving planning permissions for homes up the back of every boreen, and have people living in cities, towns and villages where they actually CAN walk to shops and walk to school.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,169 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    While you are playing with words I'll be deciding for myself to walk, cycle, use public transport or drive as I see fit.

    Sometimes I even use taxis.

    Private car use may be restricted in cities which is sensible but cars in general are not going away anytime soon.

    Who wouldn't like a road trip or to help out a relation or neighbour by giving them a lift, or go to the shop and buy the bargains to carry home ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,993 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Sorry, I wasn't clear.

    If you're on a "Proper" main road, with good visibility that's not in a built up area with loads of junctions, I really don't care what speed you so long as it's not reckless.

    Stupidity and Speed are not the same thing. Germany manages fine on the Autobahns.

    Basically:

    Motorway: 180km/h (Also if you cause crash on a motorway You should have your license taken away immediately, it's literally the easiest place to drive)

    Dual carriage way/main road: 80-120 depending

    Main road in a city: 50-60 km/h

    Housing estate: keep it under 15 km/h

    Also, if you're driving around with f**ked tyres or brakes or other serious defect, again license taken away, sit your test again.

    The quality of driving on the road at the moment is appalling.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,169 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Freedom of choice, I'm all for it.

    Like I said in my other post cars are not going away anytime soon.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you played along, and now you're saying i was the one playing. a bit disingenuous, no?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i don't 100% agree with you, so i appreciate that picking out what i do disagree with may come across as nit-picky.

    'stupidity and speed are not the same thing' - yes, but excess speed is stupid. i agree it's not a two-way relationship.

    'germany manages fine on the autobahns' - the fatality rate on the autobahn is one of the highest in western europe, according to this (and weirdly, seemingly over 5x higher than ireland?). one of the only two large countries with a higher death rate is italy, where i've seen some crazy driving.

    https://www.statista.com/chart/25098/fatality-rate-and-speed-limit-on-european-motorways/

    i've been on german motorways quite often (though usually as a passenger, once at 250km/h), and for the vast majority of people, the higher speed limit does not make for faster journeys.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    on the subject of motorways, we had some american relatives visiting recently, who hired a car and drove west. they were commenting on how narrow our motorways felt - not just the number of lanes, but actual lane width also.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭1874


    Yes, but you show images of instances of where cycling is already well established not just in the mindset of the people (all look like Netherlands to me) but they have their roads and infrastructure set up for it. Mostly we are shown images of Amsterdam when the benefits of cycling are put out there. I was impressed when I was in Copenhagen over a decade ago and cyclists had seperate lanes from vehicle traffic, here cyclists and vehicle drivers disregard traffic lights, Im not saying it is everyone from both groups, but it does appear its the mindset overall and very little has changed here regarding cycling infrastructure. What we have is cycle lanes that are added on to an existing lane (sometimes bus lanes, which car drivers disregard anyway) and this is only in a relatively small proportion of the road infrastructure . I suspect if we saw images of the countryside of The Netherlands or other than Amsterdam we may see appropriate, possibly seperate lanes for cyclists. I wouldnt dare cycle on most Countryside lanes here, we have people (especially when its young lads, driving farm vehicles recklessly at speed) alongside other vehicle drivers who do so too. In instances of where cyclists have been killed or where drivers have even been caught for driving at and targetting cyclists, they are dealt with very lightly (should be banned off the road for a substantial period of time or depending on the severity imprisoned).

    Until those that are meant to be charged with managing our infrastructure, change how it is built, it is not fit or safe for purpose to cycle on (as its an afterthought tacked onto an existing infrastructure for motor vehicles) and they cant expect people to suddenly take up cycling alongside speeding cars, white vans, and commercial vehicles, and it is not right to try insist anyone else or their family does so. Until we have the infrastructure I wont be cycling anywhere as much as I want to (I have no expectation that it will be constructed in my lifetime), I wont be asking my child to cycle anywhere because it is completely unsafe to do so. If anything happens them, I know even if (a big if) someone is caught, they will get off the hook.

    As for anyone protesting about my complaint about the weather, I did it for years because it was essential, its not nice, its not safe and I dont think its healthy to be out in weather that makes it more difficult for drivers to see or respond to cyclists, but I think it is even worse now, with more drivers with reckless disregard for everyone including other motorists. So, if anyone else wants to do it, go for it, but they shouldnt be insisting a single other person participates, its just not safe to be on our roads as a cyclist, especially for unaccompanied children, we need a seperate cycling infrastructure alongside our roads. All this takes is putting in place seperate kerbed lanes and traffic crossing lights which correspond to pedestrian crossings, but ( a big but) is the Gardai need to be out policing the streets, not just for traffic offenses, but for other reasons. I looked at the numbers per head of population and the argument that they are undermanned didnt stack up, they are better manned than some and not as good as others, Im inclined to view them as poorly managed from a resource point of view, where some Gardai even refused to turn on a new radio type which would assist/report its location (hence the Garda it was assigned to).

    I will continue to argue against people who insist we just get on our bikes and be the change we want, because its just not that simple. The ways things are in this country we need a seperate infrastructure for cyclists, if that means taking some of it from motorists, Im fine with that, but sufficient alternatives have to be in place. Its not good enough to ban certain things or try tax them without having appropriate alternatives in place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,761 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    There's hundreds of examples if you want to google for more

    All I see here is a judge making a ruling on drivers who accidentally hit cyclists. Accidents happen and the Mirror is full of s#!te seems to be the argument here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,993 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I've also seen some crazy driving in Italy.... 🙄

    Interesting that Ireland is at the bottom of the list re motorway deaths yet per person we have more road deaths that Germany

    Depends on how the statistic is presented I suppose. Still surprising there are more deaths per 1000km there all the same (The autobahn network is 13,000km I think)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    yeah, the stat is based on fatality rate per 1,000km of motorway, rather than fatality rate per 1,000km driven, say - so lots of other factors in play, including how busy the motorways are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,169 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Well no I didn't mean to be disingenuous and I'm sorry if I upset you but no need to fall out over it I hope.

    You see there are plenty like me out there who use various methods of transport and don't have ideological hangups about one or the other.

    All this anti car stuff is a distraction, most rational people will make sensible choices when good alternatives become available.

    For now we have a lot of car dependence but that can be worked on over time.

    Netherlands has higher car ownership than Ireland. It's not the number of cars that's the problem it's how they are used.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭1874


    Well, that corresponds to my own view and complaint, the Gardai and speeding enforcement are out on specific types of roads (I wouldnt typically say motorways but other main roads) where they can catch some speeding and collect fines but overall change nothing. I dont think our motorways are where the problem is (up to a certain speed), but it would be easier to do average speed enforcement there automatically anyway. Our problem, in my opinion is elsewhere, in towns and estates where pedestrians are also more likely to be. Id like to see if they kept statistics on where these road deaths are? Are they drivers or passengers or is it a combination of other road users (cyclists/pedestrians?). Id be inclined to think we have a lot of pedestrian and even more so cyclists deaths because where motorists interact with them, the motorist either doesnt regard them as much more than a hindrance to their journey and in comparison, we have a substantially smaller population and motorway network in comparison to Germany, so it doesnt surprise me that Germany has more motorway deaths at all, but having less overall, tells me they are better at providing pedestrian/cyclist infrastructure and better at policing roads and that they have a better view of non motoring road users. Maybe Germany should monitor on which part of their network the deaths are, if on the sections of autobahns where speed isnt limited, then possibly they should bring some limits in. I think driving at speed can be ok to a point where appropriate (motorways for sure) but having no limit where people can drive at much higher speeds seems like a recipe for disaster.

    Can I ask where you got those statistics so I can view in comparison to Ireland as I think it would point to where we need improvement. If deaths are higher for pedestrians/cyclists then I think it confirms what I think, we need improved seperate cycle lane infrastructure, partly as its a good idea for cyclists, (you wouldnt expect pedestrians, incl children, to share the road with motor vehicles) and partly it shows that policing is poor.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    this article does state a motorway fatality rate per billion km driven, and that the german figure is double that of the UK:

    Per billion kilometres travelled on motorways, Germany’s fatality rate (1.6) is twice as high as that in the UK (0.8)

    https://www.thelocal.de/20190201/are-germanys-autobahns-really-the-safest-highways-in-the-world



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,451 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Ah but, she had "excellent employment and character references", so that makes it understandable to drive into a man with Downs syndrome and kill him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15 RBBBBSS


    Another preventable death and yet another VRU killed by a woman. When will we crack down and make people accountable.

    It’s infuriating. What can be done at this stage?



  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This aligns perfectly with the op of this thread




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭growleaves


    The penis people also push around buggies at times.



  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 527 ✭✭✭dickdasr1234


    Hehe, some twenty years ago, I remember trying to explain to some of our northern brethren that you had to prove you couldn't drive before you could get a second provisional licence down south.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭growleaves


    The penis people congratulate you also for your intuitive grasp of urban planning.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,761 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    What a blind woman would do in this situation that a blind man would do in that case is questionable. Maybe councils could just stop hiring blind people in their planning departments



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